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Penguin here, check this out.

This is a discussion on Penguin here, check this out. within the Private Servers forums, part of the Knight Online (ko4life.com) category; Originally Posted by TheREALPenguin I didn't rip the sword, it is technically a rip, because I used pictures to reference ...
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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALPenguin View Post
    I didn't rip the sword, it is technically a rip, because I used pictures to reference shape, but I did create the model myself. The program out there to rip models out of WoW is so buggy right now it's hard to even get a good export, though I did try. The texture I was able to export though.

    Lol people like you. Eesh.

    He did, actually, he decompiled all of the map files, which I know that twostars did that as well. How do you think he made that teleport editor haha. I'm trying to find the picture, but once I find it I'll prove that we can create maps. We threw a basic shitty one together with some towers and monsters inside it, if I can't find the picture I'll just make another one haha. Really isn't that hard.

    Darkflamed created an entirely new plugin the one on snoxd is not that complete and can't work on any newer versions of any 3d modeling program. Dark created his own plugin to work with the 2015 versions. You need proof of this too?

    Darkflamed doesn't need to rip off other people to do all this haha, he's created his own shit to do it all.

    I have my side of it, he has his. While his side does have more work, I still do work.

    My point still stands, by your definition, game modelers don't do work.

    Edit: mortal I really couldn't understand what you were trying to say, were you trying to say it was fake? I am really confused.
    Alright, i'll grant you that you did a good job modeling the model yourself.
    Not sure what 'Lol people like you. Eesh.' means to you, but it reads as 'Lol, I got nothing else left to say so i'll try and put something in there that might upset this guy'. Eventhough the map files structure and all other important code to handle them (albeit a little broken) was already public, a job well done. I'll believe you can create new maps; how about editing existing ones, as twostars pointed out, in specific the ground textures? As for the entirely new plugin part, considering the (original and outdated) source for the plugins used by MGame at that time are also public, as is the file format changes to the 3DS Max files, I find that hard to believe, at most he has had to take a look at where it differs and work from there on out. As for the main point in my previous 2 replies; which you conveniently ignored on your part, you not having done an aweful lot of work which would maybe warrant a topic like this still stands for me. I'm rather unimpressed by your work as even I can recreate a model from reference, problem I have is creating new things because I suck at drawing. In my opinion, 3D modeling is an art, engineering is a skill. Art is not work, it's an expression of yourself or things you want to represent, unlike engineering which is a necessity, which is the reason I don't consider people that do art as people that do work, work is done by engineers to make life on the art people easier, or otherwise provide them with tools. But that discussion is getting off-topic so I'll end it here.

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    Is everyone really arguing about how hard something might be? I don't really care what anyone THINKS is easy to do or not. The fact is that no one has put the effort to doing any of it. So it will be done to what we would like to do and released with our server for people to enjoy. Who really cares on specifics unless you are part of the development team, and as it stands me and penguin are the only people on that team. If you want to go find out the specifics go try doing some of it yourself, you'll come to realize that some of the stuff you thought was easy was not, and some of the stuff you thought was hard was actually pretty simple. This community I swear everyone has to show off and tell you how easy everything is yet no one ever DOES anything they say is easy. If its easy go do it yourself, make something nice, display it however you like.
    azreal313 likes this.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aburaaliz View Post
    Alright, i'll grant you that you did a good job modeling the model yourself.
    Not sure what 'Lol people like you. Eesh.' means to you, but it reads as 'Lol, I got nothing else left to say so i'll try and put something in there that might upset this guy'. Eventhough the map files structure and all other important code to handle them (albeit a little broken) was already public, a job well done. I'll believe you can create new maps; how about editing existing ones, as twostars pointed out, in specific the ground textures? As for the entirely new plugin part, considering the (original and outdated) source for the plugins used by MGame at that time are also public, as is the file format changes to the 3DS Max files, I find that hard to believe, at most he has had to take a look at where it differs and work from there on out. As for the main point in my previous 2 replies; which you conveniently ignored on your part, you not having done an aweful lot of work which would maybe warrant a topic like this still stands for me. I'm rather unimpressed by your work as even I can recreate a model from reference, problem I have is creating new things because I suck at drawing. In my opinion, 3D modeling is an art, engineering is a skill. Art is not work, it's an expression of yourself or things you want to represent, unlike engineering which is a necessity, which is the reason I don't consider people that do art as people that do work, work is done by engineers to make life on the art people easier, or otherwise provide them with tools. But that discussion is getting off-topic so I'll end it here.



    So there's that. Let's see what else do I care to address. By people like you I meant literally, just arguing for the sake of arguing. For me, learning 3D modeling so far has been WORK. When you become a 3d modeler, it is WORK, it creates WORK. MOST 3D modelers in games, take a concept art, throw it on a plane, and then work from there. Taking someone elses idea and running with it. Then you have the people who texture the models, then you have the people who rig the models, then you have the animators. These are all separate JOBS with 3D modeling, specifically for games or animated movies. So yes, it is work. There are people who free form, and that's artistic, but when it comes to games and animated movies, they reference a concept that has been thought of by a hand artist.

    What you explained, is creating a new plugin. He already had some of the reference points and what he needed from the public release, but honestly, that public release is buggy and iffy to work with. So yeah, he had to design an entirely new plugin, and did it for the newer studios.

    I have done a lot of work. I really have. This is just something we've been trying to do for a while and it was exciting having gotten it done. See, Darkflamed may be the coder, but everything server sided, and in game, I'VE done aside from his programs.

    So I want to know how I haven't done work. I want to know what gives you the right to say I haven't done work. You don't know what I've done, you have no idea haha. Do you know anything about my server? No, you don't.

    People like you, that literally argue, just for the sake of arguing. It's childish, it's stupid. You act as if you have some point to prove, but you keep saying the same thing "Blah blah you haven't done work". Over and over. I have, I've done a lot of work. I created our tables from scratch, I created most of our Database from scratch, all the items I created, drops, spawns, events, everything. You're trying to make me look like an idiot or something, but you've got people telling you that YOU are wrong.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALPenguin View Post


    So there's that.
    Did you have to completely replace them though, or did you workaround the problems associated with the missing source info for the textures? The problem, as far as I can recall, is that it gets built up into a file that's essentially just a bunch of tile textures; while you obviously know where to place them (otherwise how else would the client see them), the original dev info is lost, as it's normally saved in another dev-only format, so - since we're only able to load the client's files (not the original dev files) - it gets a little lost.

    (that's what he was referring to anyway, replacing them outright is fine [can even just do it quickly with a hex editor!] because you'll create [and store] your own associated dev info -- but by default, with the missing source info, you can't really use the existing tile textures, without rewriting all that)

    ... I wonder how much of that was an accurate recall. :|

  5. #110
    Senior Member TheREALPenguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twostars View Post
    Did you have to completely replace them though, or did you workaround the problems associated with the missing source info for the textures? The problem, as far as I can recall, is that it gets built up into a file that's essentially just a bunch of tile textures; while you obviously know where to place them (otherwise how else would the client see them), the original dev info is lost, as it's normally saved in another dev-only format, so - since we're only able to load the client's files (not the original dev files) - it gets a little lost.

    (that's what he was referring to anyway, replacing them outright is fine [can even just do it quickly with a hex editor!] because you'll create [and store] your own associated dev info -- but by default, with the missing source info, you can't really use the existing tile textures)

    ... I wonder how much of that was an accurate recall. :|
    Lol that's way too complicated. It was nothing but replacing textures. Renaming stuff. Not hard at all the only reason I posted that picture was to point out his "what about ground textures". Although, if you do replace the ground textures the easy way, you'll see where the missing info is that you're talking about, on the ground, for instance, the blocks underneath the fountain in the middle, on certain textures, you can see a corner of one of those in a random area. So if you do it this way, renaming (The easy way), then it's going to look bad in a lot of areas. Which is why we're just gonna import all the objects in moradon and completely rebuilt it so I can re-texture it and it won't have retarded areas. I only posted that picture because he simply stated ground textures and it made me giggle.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALPenguin View Post
    Lol that's way too complicated. It was nothing but replacing textures. Renaming stuff. Not hard at all the only reason I posted that picture was to point out his "what about ground textures". Although, if you do replace the ground textures the easy way, you'll see where the missing info is that you're talking about, on the ground, for instance, the blocks underneath the fountain in the middle, on certain textures, you can see a corner of one of those in a random area. So if you do it this way, renaming (The easy way), then it's going to look bad in a lot of areas. Which is why we're just gonna import all the objects in moradon and completely rebuilt it so I can re-texture it and it won't have retarded areas. I only posted that picture because he simply stated ground textures and it made me giggle.
    So you're not using the map editor to create your new maps?

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by twostars View Post
    Did you have to completely replace them though, or did you workaround the problems associated with the missing source info for the textures? The problem, as far as I can recall, is that it gets built up into a file that's essentially just a bunch of tile textures; while you obviously know where to place them (otherwise how else would the client see them), the original dev info is lost, as it's normally saved in another dev-only format, so - since we're only able to load the client's files (not the original dev files) - it gets a little lost.

    (that's what he was referring to anyway, replacing them outright is fine [can even just do it quickly with a hex editor!] because you'll create [and store] your own associated dev info -- but by default, with the missing source info, you can't really use the existing tile textures, without rewriting all that)

    ... I wonder how much of that was an accurate recall. :|
    What missing information are you talking about? The textures are placed into the game as a stack, no more information necissary then a certain amount in the stack per file, then it references the file and jumps to the stack number for the specific tile. Its not really that hard. You can even take textures out of the stack manually and replace them if you know what to look for 'NTF0x03'.....

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkflamed View Post
    What missing information are you talking about? The textures are placed into the game as a stack, no more information necissary then a certain amount in the stack per file, then it references the file and jumps to the stack number for the specific tile. Its not really that hard. You can even take textures out of the stack manually and replace them if you know what to look for 'NTF0x03'.....
    Yeah, my point really wasn't regarding the GTT files themselves (they really are just all the textures tacked on one after the other), but rather the fact these files are built by the editor (from source files, etc), so even just the original filenames for the textures it builds them from are missing here. Obviously, though, you sub this out with the file itself extracted from the GTT.

    Regarding the other stuff, I really don't recall what the other information was (perhaps UV coords? I'd have to go back and look), it was months ago when I last dealt with it -- I just recall that it was a little bit of a PITA having to workaround it (in order to fully edit existing maps that we have no source projects for, as opposed to just creating new ones or modifying them in other ways), and wondered if you guys had bothered as well.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by twostars View Post
    Yeah, my point really wasn't regarding the GTT files themselves (they really are just all the textures tacked on one after the other), but rather the fact these files are built by the editor (from source files, etc), so even just the original filenames for the textures it builds them from are missing here. Obviously, though, you sub this out with the file itself extracted from the GTT.

    Regarding the other stuff, I really don't recall what the other information was (perhaps UV coords? I'd have to go back and look), it was months ago when I last dealt with it -- I just recall that it was a little bit of a PITA having to workaround it, and wondered if you guys had bothered as well.
    Replacing the textures and making the original maps look "nicer" was more of a side project to smooth out the graphics in the game. I haven't really had the need to completely import every map file into an editor to change everything about it, making new maps as you said is much easier and a lot less waste of time. I do have all of the map files structured with header files though in Neo, so I know how the structure is laid out in each of them but thats neither here nor there. Maps, textures and meshes are the easy parts right now im working more towards the skins, joints, and whatever else I might need for armor/monsters.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkflamed View Post
    im working more towards the skins, joints, and whatever else I might need for armor/monsters.
    Eh? When did these update?
    I remember having to update formats for effects, map stuff (obviously) (and animation keys are currently encrypted, I believe), even the DXT (well, N3Texture) format for the clan symbols, but I don't really remember ever having to touch those (at least, to update their format). ;s

    Might have to check the repo log but I really don't remember having to touch them. That said, I haven't really touched current USKO stuff (late 19xx/20xx) yet, as I assumed it'd be the same as 18xx/early 19xx...

    Edit: I haven't touched them. Am I behind?

  11. #116
    Senior Member TheREALPenguin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twostars View Post
    Eh? When did these update?
    I remember having to update formats for effects, map stuff (obviously) (and animation keys are currently encrypted, I believe), even the DXT (well, N3Texture) format for the clan symbols, but I don't really remember ever having to touch those (at least, to update their format). ;s

    Might have to check the repo log but I really don't remember having to touch them. That said, I haven't really touched current USKO stuff (late 19xx/20xx) yet, as I assumed it'd be the same as 18xx/early 19xx...
    He's just talking about the plugin exporting skins and whatnot.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheREALPenguin View Post
    He's just talking about the plugin exporting skins and whatnot.
    Plugins. Exporting. Right.

    Had me worried that I had more work ahead of me at some point. Already got lots to do! :P

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by twostars View Post
    Eh? When did these update?
    I remember having to update formats for effects, map stuff (obviously) (and animation keys are currently encrypted, I believe), even the DXT (well, N3Texture) format for the clan symbols, but I don't really remember ever having to touch those (at least, to update their format). ;s

    Might have to check the repo log but I really don't remember having to touch them. That said, I haven't really touched current USKO stuff (late 19xx/20xx) yet, as I assumed it'd be the same as 18xx/early 19xx...

    Edit: I haven't touched them. Am I behind?
    Its not the fact that I need to change much about the structure its just I need to export them properly. I made my plugin for the new 3ds max 2015 and their structure changed a bit (actually mostly the same since 2000 though) and I also had to update to DX9 for x64 (not that I had to just sounded fun) so there was a bit to do.

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    Glad the fighting seems to have stopped, I think this is really sweet and I'm pretty excited to see what can be done with it
    zuka likes this.

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