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Why do mages have to be one or the other?

This is a discussion on Why do mages have to be one or the other? within the Class Questions and Tips forums, part of the Game Questions & Tips category; A bunch of people on Ko4life always say not to go a hybrid build (balance between attack/support) for mages. Why? ...
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  1. #1
    Willows
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    A bunch of people on Ko4life always say not to go a hybrid build (balance between attack/support) for mages.

    Why?

    I'm normally statted 160 int 160 mp 101 hp 51 str on my light mage, level 73. I've got 3k base hp, 650 ac, and I blade tank priests with scorp shield + lycaon for 480, nub rogues for 600. I have an elysium +8 and a single imir +2, other finger is ROM for the moment.

    I went MP build for a few days, to see how it was or if I was being an idiot for doing my half-tank build. 160 int 212 mp, same gear, bladed the same tank priest with scorp shield + lycaon for 50ish more damage at the cost of 777 base hp and 1 ac. Stun cloud (level 70 ranged skill) and novas hit quite a bit harder, but most everything else was meh improvement.

    If I take my imir off, I blade about 100 damage less. So if I wanted to do more damage, I'd buy a second imir +2, theoretically blading 550 as a minimum to anyone not using a talia. I'd still be hp build, blading 550s-650s or more to most people. I dunno about you, but for me that's damn plenty of damage, and gaining another 50-70 damage by going MP build isn't worth the hefty hp loss.

    So why does it apparently have to be full mp build or tank build, and not a happy medium? The biggest argument I've heard is that "50 more blade dmg is for every blade, and 777 hp is taken away in one hit".

    Sure, that's true if all you do is 1v1. Roll with a party healer and that 777 hp will come back every time a full heal is dropped. Roll without that 777 hp and you'll be dead a hit sooner, and speaking from experience it's pretty damn hard to blade for 50 more damage for usual when you're dead. And I'm level 73. Even if I didn't put any more points into hp, that number would still go up as I level, meaning hopefully around 900 hp more at level 80.

    I guess my big question is this: Is the rumor that a mage should only be full attack or full tank build the truth, or is it just archaic bullshit that is no longer true?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Tyrano's Avatar
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    you can do watever works for you

  3. #3
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    A bunch of people on Ko4life always say not to go a hybrid build (balance between attack/support) for mages.

    Why?

    I'm normally statted 160 int 160 mp 101 hp 51 str on my light mage, level 73. I've got 3k base hp, 650 ac, and I blade tank priests with scorp shield + lycaon for 480, nub rogues for 600. I have an elysium +8 and a single imir +2, other finger is ROM for the moment.

    I went MP build for a few days, to see how it was or if I was being an idiot for doing my half-tank build. 160 int 212 mp, same gear, bladed the same tank priest with scorp shield + lycaon for 50ish more damage at the cost of 777 base hp and 1 ac. Stun cloud (level 70 ranged skill) and novas hit quite a bit harder, but most everything else was meh improvement.

    If I take my imir off, I blade about 100 damage less. So if I wanted to do more damage, I'd buy a second imir +2, theoretically blading 550 as a minimum to anyone not using a talia. I'd still be hp build, blading 550s-650s or more to most people. I dunno about you, but for me that's damn plenty of damage, and gaining another 50-70 damage by going MP build isn't worth the hefty hp loss.

    So why does it apparently have to be full mp build or tank build, and not a happy medium? The biggest argument I've heard is that "50 more blade dmg is for every blade, and 777 hp is taken away in one hit".

    Sure, that's true if all you do is 1v1. Roll with a party healer and that 777 hp will come back every time a full heal is dropped. Roll without that 777 hp and you'll be dead a hit sooner, and speaking from experience it's pretty damn hard to blade for 50 more damage for usual when you're dead. And I'm level 73. Even if I didn't put any more points into hp, that number would still go up as I level, meaning hopefully around 900 hp more at level 80.

    I guess my big question is this: Is the rumor that a mage should only be full attack or full tank build the truth, or is it just archaic bullshit that is no longer true?[/b]

    I am not sure where you have seen people say it has to be one or the other. There are plenty of mages out there with similar builds to yours.

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    Senior Member cizia's Avatar
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    as a light I like 160int/180mp/rest hp :P

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    To punish and enslave Senior Member Magyk's Avatar
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    Does it matter if i say that depressing majority of all mage talk here makes me lol. Few years ago i tried to makd a dif, but i gave up.

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    I'm one of those that would never go half tank half attack. Especially as a fire mage. Never played light so no clue about that, but if you look to salsa or bfd and you compare them with a random hybrid light mage the difference is huge.

    If you get like 180 mp instead of 245 at lvl 80, the staff damage will hit 200-250 lower (hb +8 fr +2/+3). 777 hp is like 1-2 hits for a warrior? If you have 1.2K ac, 7.6K mana and 5Khp (my stats being full mp mage)you would be stupid to choose 700 hp over 250 damage more each hit...

    The point is, a hybrid mage will never make the same damage as a full attack mage. And a hybrid mage will never be able to tank as much as a full tank mage.


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    I'm one of those that would never go half tank half attack. Especially as a fire mage. Never played light so no clue about that, but if you look to salsa or bfd and you compare them with a random hybrid light mage the difference is huge.

    If you get like 180 mp instead of 245 at lvl 80, the staff damage will hit 200-250 lower (hb +8 fr +2/+3). 777 hp is like 1-2 hits for a warrior? If you have 1.2K ac, 7.6K mana and 5Khp (my stats being full mp mage)you would be stupid to choose 700 hp over 250 damage more each hit...

    The point is, a hybrid mage will never make the same damage as a full attack mage. And a hybrid mage will never be able to tank as much as a full tank mage.[/b]
    agreed. basically , mage has only 3 chances to make dmg. MP stat, Staff, and BF rings. where as all other classes have all armour + all unique to make increased dmg.

    You can make hp and ac up with other uniques and armour. IMO always full dmg or full support.

    Im not sayin full dmg cant play support, im saying you need to stat to make dmg, and with nice enough items u can still tank enopugh to play support when needed.

  8. #8
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    Does it matter if i say that depressing majority of all mage talk here makes me lol. Few years ago i tried to makd a dif, but i gave up.[/b]
    Not if you don't make it clear whether you advocate one/the other or a hybrid, it don't!

    Simon, I see your point as fire, 200-250 blade damage is ridiculous, definitely is worth the 1k ish hp loss. No fair comparing Salsa and BFD to randoms, though, skills and gear obviously outshine random nubs. I don't think you can say BFD would have done phenomenally worse with 180/160 rest hp or something.

    ...though it wouldn't have been worth it for him at that point, I don't think, because he got the hp/ac gain needed to survive from his gears.

    Also he stunned like a bitch so hp/ac mattered less


    Callum, as light I'm saying that MP isn't doing shit for my blade damages so a hybrid build that ignores MP for damage and relies on rings instead is quite likely better than a full MP build with +2/+3 rings simply because the damage increase per point in MP for light seems to be less than what a point of element damage gained from a ring adds.

    If the difference between level 80 160 mp 135 hp hybrid and 245 mp build is MORE THAN 200 blade damage to most with dual imir +2 and elysium +8, then I'd say you've gotta be pretty thick to go hybrid build, even though you'd gain 13xx hp and 35 ac. If it's constantly less than 200 damage difference, then I'd stick hybrid build, downgrade earrings and gogo imirs +3.

    Obviously MP build and imirs +3 would hit harder still, but you'd also need GG uniques otherwise to survive.

  9. #9
    To punish and enslave Senior Member Magyk's Avatar
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    I ment this section, not the topic-__-

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    Never go half tank/half damage... pointless... decide what you wanna do. If you got great teammates ur pking with all the time then just go full support as in HP build... if you are like me who likes to solo on mage, then go mp build. The thing is when you are half support/damage... ur never good enough for either one, since u won't be good enough to support/tank... or u won't be good enough to kill someone with ur mediocre damage.

  11. #11
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    Never go half tank/half damage... pointless... decide what you wanna do. If you got great teammates ur pking with all the time then just go full support as in HP build... if you are like me who likes to solo on mage, then go mp build. The thing is when you are half support/damage... ur never good enough for either one, since u won't be good enough to support/tank... or u won't be good enough to kill someone with ur mediocre damage.[/b]
    See that shit makes no fucking sense to me.

    It's never that cut-and-dry for anyone, and to say it is seems ridiculous.

    A level 80 mage, say, W shells +7, bifrost staff +7, bifrost rings +1 and +0 nub jewels is prolly gonna benefit more from 120 points into hp (I.E doesn't get one-hit anymore when duffed) than extra damage. You'd still be hitting hard enough to kill people (500ish) and have more HP to town or buy yourself time to blink + thorn or vampiric fire or ice block.

    And playing these days as mage vs most classes, the battle seems to be decided in the first 3 seconds. If you get shockstunned and can't get away before it wears off, your full MP did shit for you. If you get blinded by a rogue and can't find him, you ain't gonna last long enough to make any good use of your high MP. Duffed by a BP? Unless you slow/stun them, it's byebye you.

    Of course all of the above depends on gear, but that's part of what I'm saying. To say to every mage that they have to be either full HP or full MP is retarded, simply because there definitely is merit to a hybrid build even though none of your stats in particular are visually impressive.

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    See that shit makes no fucking sense to me.

    It's never that cut-and-dry for anyone, and to say it is seems ridiculous.

    A level 80 mage, say, W shells +7, bifrost staff +7, bifrost rings +1 and +0 nub jewels is prolly gonna benefit more from 120 points into hp (I.E doesn't get one-hit anymore when duffed) than extra damage. You'd still be hitting hard enough to kill people (500ish) and have more HP to town or buy yourself time to blink + thorn or vampiric fire or ice block.

    And playing these days as mage vs most classes, the battle seems to be decided in the first 3 seconds. If you get shockstunned and can't get away before it wears off, your full MP did shit for you. If you get blinded by a rogue and can't find him, you ain't gonna last long enough to make any good use of your high MP. Duffed by a BP? Unless you slow/stun them, it's byebye you.

    Of course all of the above depends on gear, but that's part of what I'm saying. To say to every mage that they have to be either full HP or full MP is retarded, simply because there definitely is merit to a hybrid build even though none of your stats in particular are visually impressive.[/b]
    u wanna be hiting 500s with dual FRs +0 and hell blood +7 with less then 200 mp on a server such as diez.... lol

    try it out thought, i don't wanna ruin your whole conspiracy why you think it's bad, so try it out and u'll see why...

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    u wanna be hiting 500s with dual FRs +0 and hell blood +7 with less then 200 mp on a server such as diez.... lol

    try it out thought, i don't wanna ruin your whole conspiracy why you think it's bad, so try it out and u'll see why...[/b]
    Im trying out half mp half tank build, and with elysium+7, only one imir+1 (other ring isnt an imir) and 138mp stats im hitting 500s in diez so as fire it would be even more...

  14. #14
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    Im trying out half mp half tank build, and with elysium+7, only one imir+1 (other ring isnt an imir) and 138mp stats im hitting 500s in diez so as fire it would be even more...[/b]
    eeeeexactly.

    I was single imir +2 (same element as dual +0) and elysium +8 and was blading very rarely (Either talia or int priest with scorp shield + LBs) under 500 as 160 MP level 73.

    Same gear as 246 MP at level 80 (diff char) hits 650s-700s, most notable damage increase from the MP gain is for novas/single shot skills (70 skill went up 400 dmg), not so much for blade.

    So I'm not entirely just some random douchebag spouting off about how some build I haven't tried sucks. Fact is I tried half mp half tank (160 int 160 mp 101 hp 51 str lvl 73) and I vastly preferred it to 160 int rest MP, because 777 hp kicked the FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF outta 70-odd blade damage.

    I haven't tried (160 int 160 mp 136 hp 51 str lvl 80) yet, because I don't feel like going back to blading 500s right now, but something tells me that being a class almost always targetted first in PK would benefit from staying alive long enough to actually get a blade off, or be tank enough to actually play support mage if the need arises. If you're one or the other you'll either be thriving or useless, whereas a hybrid can play both well and is useful in most situations.

    And it&#39;s no conspiracy, I just think that Ko4life is full of idiots (Not you simon <3) that will just regurgitate any shit they hear because they heard it, and not because they&#39;ve actually tested it out.

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    Im trying out half mp half tank build, and with elysium+7, only one imir+1 (other ring isnt an imir) and 138mp stats im hitting 500s in diez so as fire it would be even more...[/b]
    with 138 mp and elysium +7... sure if shows on ur screen, remember though that&#39;s 400s on theirs

    eeeeexactly.

    I was single imir +2 (same element as dual +0) and elysium +8 and was blading very rarely (Either talia or int priest with scorp shield + LBs) under 500 as 160 MP level 73.

    Same gear as 246 MP at level 80 (diff char) hits 650s-700s, most notable damage increase from the MP gain is for novas/single shot skills (70 skill went up 400 dmg), not so much for blade.

    So I&#39;m not entirely just some random douchebag spouting off about how some build I haven&#39;t tried sucks. Fact is I tried half mp half tank (160 int 160 mp 101 hp 51 str lvl 73) and I vastly preferred it to 160 int rest MP, because 777 hp kicked the FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF outta 70-odd blade damage.

    I haven&#39;t tried (160 int 160 mp 136 hp 51 str lvl 80) yet, because I don&#39;t feel like going back to blading 500s right now, but something tells me that being a class almost always targetted first in PK would benefit from staying alive long enough to actually get a blade off, or be tank enough to actually play support mage if the need arises. If you&#39;re one or the other you&#39;ll either be thriving or useless, whereas a hybrid can play both well and is useful in most situations.

    And it&#39;s no conspiracy, I just think that Ko4life is full of idiots (Not you simon <3) that will just regurgitate any shit they hear because they heard it, and not because they&#39;ve actually tested it out.[/b]
    The point is I&#39;d rather have that extra damage then instead of having that 777 hp as u say... why? because for one, it&#39;s only a hp pot away, and the other thing is u got vamparic fire.... Idk if you are new to mage, but with 2x vamparic fire, you should be able to get out of almost any situation, unless u got like 5+ ganging u at once. Anyways, go ahead and try it, I&#39;ve only seen people that support or people that want to be spamming the kills (damage)... and this built isn&#39;t meant for either, but takes parts of both sides. If you really know how to play a mage, 4.5k hp (basically lvl 80 shell mage with full mp stated with quest uniques) would be just enough to do anything... but since this is diez, i can imagine the crazy uniques there are, so I don&#39;t know why ur wanting to go from lets say the 5k hp that u have now, to the 6k hp that u want and are willing to sacrifice the damage.

    Personally for me, if you staffing people lower then 500s, I suggest you just go full support, cause that&#39;s not really considered damage...

    That&#39;s what happened to me on C-west when I played this mage, it was like 200 mp, 90 hp and 160 int or so... was spamming a guy that i was vsing 400s on my screen, meaning 300s on his.... just pathetic, i just quit that char cause it wasn&#39;t worthy of saying that it was a fire damage build

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