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How defenses work in game. True or guess? Enjoy it...

This is a discussion on How defenses work in game. True or guess? Enjoy it... within the General Chat forums, part of the Knight Online (ko4life.com) category; I saw in one tread talking about defenses and some people were totally out. So for those who know it ...
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  1. #1
    Senior Member Nathasa's Avatar
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    Default How defenses work in game. True or guess? Enjoy it...

    I saw in one tread talking about defenses and some people were totally out. So for those who know it will be just boring reading, but for those who have no idea, i hope it will help them to find some new.

    So if you wear 2 daggers (2x 80 elemental dmg for example) and you will use spike on guy who wear talia and 25 dd helm and you would hit for 1000 dmg, it will be like 850 dmg (pure ap dmg) and 150 will be elemental dmg (it depends on resistance of enemy its just cca and its that high, coz 2x elemental dmg of two weapons) so you will hit him for 850 * 0,5 (50% down from talia) * 0,75 (25% down from dd helm) + 150 dmg (elemental dmg as i said once it depends on resists) = 469 dmg (you hit him).
    By the way if you would hit 1000 dmg without his passive skill on 75 lvl that reduce 15% all dmg it would be INCLUDE elemental dmg that means it would be 469 * 0,85 (15% reduction of 75 lvl passive skill) = 399 dmg in total.
    Myth no.1
    For those who are that smart and say biggest % goes first, i would like to say you were really dumped in math at school coz its multiply and really doesnt matter if go 850*0,5*0,75 or 850*0,75*0,5 its still same result. You can try on calculator, may be you will find something new for you. )
    Myth no.2
    We can continue with math as well. You will never reach 0, because item what gives 100 defense doesnt exist at all and if you would were like 5 of 50 dd which is (when someone adds this and most like to add defenses together it would be 250 dagger defense WOW amazing), but in fact its 0,5*0,5*0,5*0,5*0,5 = 0,03125 reduction and still when you would wear this and someone would hit you for 1000 (31,25 dmg after reduction) it will still hit you for more 150 of elemental dmg so in total he would hit you for 150+31,25 = 181,25 dmg so you will never reach total 0. So myth about over 70 defenses doesnt works is out as well. It will reduce, but it will be small numbers.

    This works only on Rogue, because he going with pure dmg mostly (except elemental dmg of weapons)
    Now i will explain how does it works with warriors and priests. (same calculation actually)

    If you hit for 1000 with warrior (by for example axe with 165 elemental dmg, well known weapon ) ) it goes with hell blade skill and thats 300% of dmg + 350 additional (1/3 reduction in PVP, added because of argue). So it will goes for 500 (pure ap dmg) + 350 skill dmg (1/3 reduction in PVP, added because of argue) + 150 elemental dmg (1000 dmg in total) and enemy will wear chitin shield 50 axe defense and talia 50 axe defense it will calculate only with that 300% (pure ap part) so it will be 500 * 0,5 (50% down by chitin shield) * 0,5 (50% down by talia) + 350 of skill dmg (1/3 reduction in PVP, added because of argue) + 150 elemental dmg (as i said before it depands on resistance of enemy) = 625 dmg you hit him (392 dmg with 1/3 PVP reduction of 350 skill additional dmg, added because of argue)
    Same as dagger defense example, when you hit enemy by 1000 dmg without 70/75 passive skill reduction, which will reduce ALL dmg by 10/15% it will be 625 dmg * 0,85 (15% reduction of 75 lvl passive skill) = 531 dmg in total (333 dmg with 1/3 PVP reduction of 350 skill additional dmg, added because of argue)
    Just in case i would like to say again that warrior what would hit you for 1000 dmg without any reduction (even 75 lvl master skill) would HIT enemy that HAVE (like most add together) 100 axe defens and 75 lvl skill reduction for 531 dmg!!!!! (333 dmg with 1/3 PVP reduction of 350 skill additional dmg, added because of argue)
    For those who want to compare, if there would be 2 items that could do (like most add together) 100 defense like on warrior example (so one item 50 dagger defense (talia exist) and second 50 dagger defense (no other item have this, its just to compare with warrior) ) and that guy would hit for 1000 dmg without any reduction as in warrior example it will be same 850 (pure ap) + 150 (elemental dmg) so [(850 * 0,5(talia) * 0,5(example item for compare))+150(elemental dmg)] * 0,85 (75 master skill reduction) = 308 dmg
    So if you will compare warrior and rogue with same conditions of 1000 dmg without any reduction and you will reduce them it will be 531 dmg (333 dmg with 1/3 PVP reduction of 350 skill additional dmg, added because of argue) by warrior and 308 dmg by rogue!!!
    Myth no.3
    It doesnt really work on only on rogues. Ya if you are good in math and you will know that rogue have NO adds on dmg and it reduce almost all dmg (except elemental dmg) it will be good numbers!!! But warriors and priests use additional dmg in their skills, so defense works only on XXX% part (like on hell blade 300% only this part) so rest (like 350 additional dmg of hell blade and elemental dmg) doesnt work on it. Thats why it works so hard on rogues.
    Myth no.4
    Every XXX added dmg of skill (except elemtal ones, like fire arrow etc.) are NOT resistable and only thing that it reduce is 70/75 lvl passive skill in mastery skills 10% and 15% reduction. If you dont trust me you can just try simple example. Let hit yourself by warrior skill Blooding and it will hit you for 1000 dmg for 20 sec, so in fact it will hit you for 100 dmg every 2 seconds, but if you have 15% passive skill reduction (75 lvl) it will hit you for 85 dmg constantly (no matter any defense, ac or resistance).

    Guys, i would like to say all this i have found out on JP KO, because weapons there using elemental dmg much more then here on US KO and conditions are same. People which wear really high defenses were fucked anyway when you wear dual 250 elemental dmg daggers and many more other things. It was kind of research for me.
    One more and most important thing i wanna say in the end of this. Everything here what i wrote is just math guesses and if you will calculate by this way you will find out that it works, but noone ever who made KO didnt say me "yea this is the code". So its just guess...

    I hope you enjoy it.....Now you can flame me.... )
    Nathasa
    Last edited by Nathasa; 05-15-2012 at 12:36 PM.

  2. #2
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    How do you know that its 150 dmg from the element dmg?

    And what if the warrior use dual? How you'll calculate it then? For example if he is using Murky + hanguk (club + sword) and the enemy have iron set, you calculate it like he has 40 weapon def or wut?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasa View Post
    I saw in one tread talking about defenses and some people were totally out. So for those who know it will be just boring reading, but for those who have no idea, i hope it will help them to find some new.

    So if you wear 2 daggers (2x 80 elemental dmg for example) and you will use spike on guy who wear talia and 25 dd helm and you would hit for 1000 dmg, it will be like 850 dmg (pure ap dmg) and 150 will be elemental dmg (it depends on resistance of enemy its just cca and its that high, coz 2x elemental dmg of two weapons) so you will hit him for 850 * 0,5 (50% down from talia) * 0,75 (25% down from dd helm) + 150 dmg (elemental dmg as i said once it depends on resists) = 469 dmg (you hit him).
    By the way if you would hit 1000 dmg without his passive skill on 75 lvl that reduce 15% all dmg it would be INCLUDE elemental dmg that means it would be 469 * 0,85 (15% reduction of 75 lvl passive skill) = 399 dmg in total.
    Myth no.1
    For those who are that smart and say biggest % goes first, i would like to say you were really dumped in math at school coz its multiply and really doesnt matter if go 850*0,5*0,75 or 850*0,75*0,5 its still same result. You can try on calculator, may be you will find something new for you. )
    Myth no.2
    We can continue with math as well. You will never reach 0, because item what gives 100 defense doesnt exist at all and if you would were like 5 of 50 dd which is (when someone adds this and most like to add defenses together it would be 250 dagger defense WOW amazing), but in fact its 0,5*0,5*0,5*0,5*0,5 = 0,03125 reduction and still when you would wear this and someone would hit you for 1000 (31,25 dmg after reduction) it will still hit you for more 150 of elemental dmg so in total he would hit you for 150+31,25 = 181,25 dmg so you will never reach total 0. So myth about over 70 defenses doesnt works is out as well. It will reduce, but it will be small numbers.

    This works only on Rogue, because he going with pure dmg mostly (except elemental dmg of weapons)
    Now i will explain how does it works with warriors and priests. (same calculation actually)

    If you hit for 1000 with warrior (by for example axe with 165 elemental dmg, well known weapon ) ) it goes with hell blade skill and thats 300% of dmg + 350 additional. So it will goes for 500 (pure ap dmg) + 350 skill dmg + 150 elemental dmg (1000 dmg in total) and enemy will wear chitin shield 50 axe defense and talia 50 axe defense it will calculate only with that 300% (pure ap part) so it will be 500 * 0,5 (50% down by chitin shield) * 0,5 (50% down by talia) + 350 of skill dmg + 150 elemental dmg (as i said before it depands on resistance of enemy) = 625 dmg (you hit him)
    Same as dagger defense example, when you hit enemy by 1000 dmg without 70/75 passive skill reduction, which will reduce ALL dmg by 10/15% it will be 625 dmg * 0,85 (15% reduction of 75 lvl passive skill) = 531 dmg in total.
    Just in case i would like to say again that warrior what would hit you for 1000 dmg without any reduction (even 75 lvl master skill) would HIT enemy that HAVE (like most add together) 100 axe defens and 75 lvl skill reduction for 531 dmg!!!!!
    For those who want to compare, if there would be 2 items that could do (like most add together) 100 defense like on warrior example (so one item 50 dagger defense (talia exist) and second 50 dagger defense (no other item have this, its just to compare with warrior) ) and that guy would hit for 1000 dmg without any reduction as in warrior example it will be same 850 (pure ap) + 150 (elemental dmg) so [(850 * 0,5(talia) * 0,5(example item for compare))+150(elemental dmg)] * 0,85 (75 master skill reduction) = 308 dmg
    So if you will compare warrior and rogue with same conditions of 1000 dmg without any reduction and you will reduce them it will be 531 dmg by warrior and 308 dmg by rogue!!!
    Myth no.3
    It doesnt really work on only on rogues. Ya if you are good in math and you will know that rogue have NO adds on dmg and it reduce almost all dmg (except elemental dmg) it will be good numbers!!! But warriors and priests use additional dmg in their skills, so defense works only on XXX% part (like on hell blade 300% only this part) so rest (like 350 additional dmg of hell blade and elemental dmg) doesnt work on it. Thats why it works so hard on rogues.
    Myth no.4
    Every XXX added dmg of skill (except elemtal ones, like fire arrow etc.) are NOT resistable and only thing that it reduce is 70/75 lvl passive skill in mastery skills 10% and 15% reduction. If you dont trust me you can just try simple example. Let hit yourself by warrior skill Blooding and it will hit you for 1000 dmg for 20 sec, so in fact it will hit you for 100 dmg every 2 seconds, but if you have 15% passive skill reduction (75 lvl) it will hit you for 85 dmg constantly (no matter any defense, ac or resistance).

    Guys, i would like to say all this i have found out on JP KO, because weapons there using elemental dmg much more then here on US KO and conditions are same. People which wear really high defenses were fucked anyway when you wear dual 250 elemental dmg daggers and many more other things. It was kind of research for me.
    One more and most important thing i wanna say in the end of this. Everything here what i wrote is just math guesses and if you will calculate by this way you will find out that it works, but noone ever who made KO didnt say me "yea this is the code". So its just guess...

    I hope you enjoy it.....Now you can flame me.... )
    Nathasa

    thanks for the essay...

    was wondering if you ever figured out how AC works?

    ive always heard its the more damage you receive, the more something like 50 ac helps...

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    had to lol.. Anyways if someone checked thru the source code or something (not good at it) and told us how it worked, would be way more accurate.

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    World War 3 Senior Member SacredHealDane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johny View Post
    had to lol.. Anyways if someone checked thru the source code or something (not good at it) and told us how it worked, would be way more accurate.
    Lmao source code.
    I read the essay was very good , well not for old pimps , but for the 1-2years once.
    Anyways he didnt say read it cause he spesificly said its gonna bore people out and ya i didnt read all that but from the half of what i read , it was pretty helpfull tbh.

    SO PEOPLE STOP SPAMMING ON THESE threads !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SacredHealDane View Post
    Lmao source code.
    I read the essay was very good , well not for old pimps , but for the 1-2years once.
    Anyways he didnt say read it cause he spesificly said its gonna bore people out and ya i didnt read all that but from the half of what i read , it was pretty helpfull tbh.

    SO PEOPLE STOP SPAMMING ON THESE threads !!!
    Well my point was , that u cant rely on math where u guessed numbers by ur self.

  7. #7
    Senior Member domey's Avatar
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    you had me at hello.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Nathasa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4YouNoHealStupiD View Post
    get a life dude
    I play 2-4h per week now. So i really dont think i have no life dude.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyDestiny View Post
    How do you know that its 150 dmg from the element dmg?

    And what if the warrior use dual? How you'll calculate it then? For example if he is using Murky + hanguk (club + sword) and the enemy have iron set, you calculate it like he has 40 weapon def or wut?
    That 150 dmg is example. It really depends how enemy have high resistance against that elemental dmg (poison vs poison etc). I can explain you on JP KO example. We were hunting Hop goblins and when i hit him with oberon dagger +8 103 ap and 155 glacier dmg and kasudaga +8 103 ap and 102 fire dmg it was by R around 700 dmg. When i rent from rent NPC (ya on JPKO it was working) dual Scream of Pathos +8 100ap and 220 lightning dmg i hit hopgoblin around 1000 by R. So difference was rapid...
    About your question of dual warrior weapon, iam not sure how dual weapon on warrior works, but it will be similar to rogue, but iam sure that defenses working separately on each kind of weapon so in your example when you wear iron set (2x 10 defenses to all weapons) and i will add chitin boots +7 (15 sword defense) it will goes like:
    Main weapon Club ap dmg * 0,9 (10% by iron necklace) * 0,9 (10% by iron belt) + elemental dmg of club = club hit dmg
    Off hand Sword ap dmg (reduction of dmg coz of off hand) * 0,9 (10% by iron necklace) * 0,9 (10% by iron belt) * 0,85 (15% by boots) + elemental dmg of sword = sword hit dmg
    club hit dmg + sword hit dmg = Total dmg hit
    !!!Without any coefficient of adds and dex bonuses!!!
    For clear calculation you can ask those who had code of game or who made kingofknight (he saw code as well, coz calculation of AP is same like ingame).

    Quote Originally Posted by eebertay View Post
    thanks for the essay...

    was wondering if you ever figured out how AC works?

    ive always heard its the more damage you receive, the more something like 50 ac helps...
    No idea what coefficient of AC against DMG, but iam sure that AC works only on AP attack, coz elemental dmg is reducing only by resistances. You probably know it from Apostol etc hunt...
    But i can explain other thing on your question, coz many people deciding on valkyra set between HP (+300) and AC (+50). When you doing vs with someone (i will hold on rogue vs rogue) it really depends what zone you play. If i will explain it on ronak 83 zone, then if you have 50 AC, it could reduce average 7 dmg (example) of all attacks, then you will save like hundreds of HP. Good rogues are able to make 12 skill combo, that means they will use all 12 skill and 12 R hits until Spike cooldown has gone (11,2 seconds). If you will vs with rogue i will take example where enemy will kill you on 5th spike, that means he will hit you 4(all sets of skill and R)*(12(skills)+12(R hits))+1(last spike that kill you) = 97 hits during one duel. So if 50 ac would save you average 7 hp it would be 679 HP (average 5 hp save would be almost equal 485 hp saved) in total saved against 300 HP bonus from valkyra set (480 hp with undy). Shorter duels will come closer to be equal or worse and longer will be better.
    But iam sure AC works % reducing of AP dmg. It doesnt matter if you calculate X AC will save X HP or X AC will reduce X AP, its same at final result. So its reduction of enemy dmg or saving your HP, you can choose. xD
    So if you play 83 ronak zone AP is much more higher then ardream zone. Thats why people choosing HP in ardream against defenses (or AC). Its just about calculation and for sure way you like playing!!!! Someone can say this is the best way, but it wont be same for you if you like different way. Its still game... xD

    Quote Originally Posted by johny View Post
    had to lol.. Anyways if someone checked thru the source code or something (not good at it) and told us how it worked, would be way more accurate.
    Iam sure on 99% that defenses works like that, but game is still about random numbers, coz when you hit average 1000 dmg, then you can hit sometimes for 1200 and sometimes for 800. xD
    So if you get point that AP and elemental dmg are static, then there have to some coefficient of randomizing like [your items, stats and adds (like scrolls, pathos gloves etc) * random coefficient (0,8-1,2(example, i really dont know coefficient))] * (defense, defenses, reductions) = DMG
    Same have monsters and actually most of other games..... xD

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    so basically you should balance between resitance and wep defense and ac? and not just go all out on weapon defense since it work work

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    Senior Member Surgeon's Avatar
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    Basically ppl should go for max elemental dmg,like dual wep for warriors

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    Senior Member wiseman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasa View Post
    Myth no.1
    For those who are that smart and say biggest % goes first, i would like to say you were really dumped in math at school coz its multiply and really doesnt matter if go 850*0,5*0,75 or 850*0,75*0,5 its still same result. You can try on calculator, may be you will find something new for you. )
    Are you sure??? Because i always thought your highest wep defense went first.... lets say... u have 15dd helm and 10dd on belt and u get hit for 1,000... it would reduce your damage by .15 making the hit be worth 850... and then your second defense would reduce that 850..taking another 85 damage from that.. (765 damage)... It doesn't reduce the hit by .25... it reduces the hit by .15 and then the result of the .15 is again reduced by .10 (the decimals are %'s sorry)
    I kno multiplying doesn't matter.... unless you have 2 different things to multiply... (the 1000 damage and then the 850 damage)
    I'm probably wrong but thats how i believed it to be.

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    Senior Member Stalker4Life's Avatar
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    So many words.

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    i believe that has got to be the best, and i mean longest most descriptive detailed forum post, that has something to do with the game

    thanks for the info buddy, it just goes to show that there is still alot of people out there that still have alot to learn about the game they have been playing for a while

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiseman View Post
    Are you sure??? Because i always thought your highest wep defense went first.... lets say... u have 15dd helm and 10dd on belt and u get hit for 1,000... it would reduce your damage by .15 making the hit be worth 850... and then your second defense would reduce that 850..taking another 85 damage from that.. (765 damage)... It doesn't reduce the hit by .25... it reduces the hit by .15 and then the result of the .15 is again reduced by .10 (the decimals are %'s sorry)
    I kno multiplying doesn't matter.... unless you have 2 different things to multiply... (the 1000 damage and then the 850 damage)
    I'm probably wrong but thats how i believed it to be.
    you made me laugh 1000*0,85*0,9 = 1000*0,9*0,85 how could they even let you go through elementary school ? o.o

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surgeon View Post
    Basically ppl should go for max elemental dmg,like dual wep for warriors
    I think your right because on the new weapons like baal elemental damage is over 100 to compensate for duals.

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