K2's Policies Bent Again?

[Yun_Yuuzhan]

Originally posted by TunaFishyMe
to him, his opinion
He feels like a winner so he is a winner

But to everyone else?

[TunaFishyMe]

but the thing is, he doesnt care what other people think. Its all in the eye of the beholder. He is playing this game to entertainment and hes enjoying himself by pking while we are "working" our asses off xping the legit way. Sure, the community sees us are legit people, but in reality, he gained (in terms of material) what we want to gain faster. If you dont play for the community, which a lot of people dont, KOSP allows you to enjoy what this game has to offer without suffering the mind-numbing xp. If the only goal in this game was for entertainment, then using KOSP will make me closer to my goal. Thus, making me a 'winner'. For me, its not, that is why I do not use KOSP.

[morax]

Im a Winner so you can base your "winning" attributes around me to be honest

[Rentzusuken]

Originally posted by morax
Im a Winner so you can base your "winning" attributes around me to be honest

Hmm, well by those standards, I'm a god of overachievement. :P

[Arca_]

these threads give me a headache

[0000000]

lol yun i cant believe u were arguing about the meaning of jealousy, you are turning into futile you should watch out.

As for koxp'ers, they frustrate me a lot. I know what their mindset is: because they were quite bad before, they believe that everyone else is cheating to be better than them. So that gives them some moral justification for using cheats. Its usually the people who say "everyone is cheating!!" who end up using KOXP. If you let this stuff get to you then it will ruin your enjoyment of the game.

[ballzy]

is hellory banned from these forums yet?

[TunaFishyMe]

I dont think it has anything to do with morals. Would I feel bad about cheating in a game? Its a game. If I want to cheat because xping is so god dam boring I will. If I cheated on a test, it would be a different story, but a game?

[0000000]

Actually i view it the other way round. If something really matters then you should do whatever you can to gain an advantage. Cheating in school exams is fine in my view in order to "supplement" your grade Exams are notorious for lazy marking, and cheating by teachers so you should take every chance to fuck over the system before it fucks you.

As for games, well none of it matters, so i dont really see the point in playing with hacks. Its like running around with a wallhack in CounterStrike gets boring after 10minutes since you are not playing the game the way it was meant to be played. The only people who like doing that are people who suck at CS and want the recognition without the effort, and all they get in the end is ridicule.

[lo0pynuts]

i play this game to have fun and meet friends and hang out with said friends. xping really dont matter to me yes i like to pk but ive pretty much given up on it seeing as i got the crappiest connection ever lol. so i just basically get on to make friends and chat with them. i used to have social anxiety disorder and ko was an outlet for me to meet ppl since i couldnt do it in real life. ive gotten over that thank god but ppl do play games for alot of other reasons then to be the best.

i dont really care if im the best. as long as im there lol and as for items i dont care about having the best items. just as long as i got some items. lol i get called a noob all the time for being a lvl 60+ and having +7 md. lol but ya know what i dont care cause there legit and there mine and whoever dont like that cant eat my nuts. lol and as for cheaters i agree with yun they may think there the best to themselves but there really not b/c if they were the best then they would have gotten all there stuff the legit way and wouldnt have had to cheat in order to get it. doesnt make them the best may make them the best cheater but definitely not the best in the game lol either way my 2 cents

[Yun_Yuuzhan]

Originally posted by TunaFishyMe
but the thing is, he doesnt care what other people think. *Its all in the eye of the beholder. *He is playing this game to entertainment and hes enjoying himself by pking while we are "working" our asses off xping the legit way. *Sure, the community sees us are legit people, but in reality, he gained (in terms of material) what we want to gain faster. *If you dont play for the community, which a lot of people dont, KOSP allows you to enjoy what this game has to offer without suffering the mind-numbing xp. *If the only goal in this game was for entertainment, then using KOSP will make me closer to my goal. *Thus, making me a 'winner'. *For me, its not, that is why I do not use KOSP.

But who plays an MMO to be hated by everyone? A child that desires negative attention. Would it bother you if a 10 year old declared himself the smartest person alive? That statement has no validity whatsoever, much like cheaters thinking they are winners.

Originally posted by 0000000+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(0000000)</div>

....As for games, well none of it matters, so i dont really see the point in playing with hacks. Its like running around with a wallhack in CounterStrike gets boring after 10minutes since you are not playing the game the way it was meant to be played. The only people who like doing that are people who suck at CS and want the recognition without the effort, and all they get in the end is ridicule.[/b]

Exactly!

<!--QuoteBegin-0000000
lol yun i cant believe u were arguing about the meaning of jealousy, you are turning into futile you should watch out.

I can't believe Rent and Tuna are arguing that cheaters really do win. I just can't see how that is.

[TunaFishyMe]

0000 makes an interesting point about cheating in real life vs cheating in a game. Personally, I have cheated in quizzes and assignments but for exams, I tend not to because the consequences are too big to risk. For me, cheating in this game has a small consequence, you lose your char for 30 days and to make things more beneficials for cheaters, there are never any active GMs to stop you. I read in a law book a couple years ago about Hobbe's view of law. At first it has to be enforced so that people obey out of fear. Then the people will obey because they have been doing it for so long. Last, people will obey because they see the reason for the law. If the first stage is never initialized, people will never obey the law. There is no consequences, therefore, there is no guilt. People may say guilt has nothing to do with consequences but I think they go hand in hand. If you disagree with me, we'll argue about that later.

A winner in a game is someone who is at the top ranks. You can say whatever you want about your reputation, but it doesnt matter because my name is up at the top. WC is a perfect example. Mgames never specify the use of 3rd party tools was prohibited. USKO assumed you couldnt use it while other KOs use them to their benefit. Other KOs were probably allowed to use these in their own world or else there wouldnt have been such a large number of people using it. I dont remember who beat who but USKO wasnt in the top ranks. Of course, we say we played fairly and everyone else cheated their way to the top, but in their eyes, they dont care. They won the championship and no officials said they cheated. In our minds, they are losers, but on paper and in their minds, they are winners. Which do you think matters more?

[Rentzusuken]

That's the point Yun: you don't want to look outside your own field of vision to see that there are other people there with different views who are just as valid as your own. That's why I continue to question your posts in this topic. Your points are valid to you and their points are valid to them, irregardless of what the other party thinks. You label them a cheater and a loser and get a carecup in return, they get the recognition and ranking they desire.

The only reason I have arguments is because you supply them for me. You noted that winning is according to the terms of the game, so I ask what the terms are and show that cheaters arrive at those terms, thus "winning" said game. The only way a cheater will lose in a game is if there is a higher authority that metes out justice and enforces rules, of which there is not. When you cut through the ideals, you are faced with the facts. The facts are that the people labeled as cheaters do not care. The facts are that the people labeled as cheaters attain the goals in the game, quicker and more efficient than you do. The facts are that the people labeled as cheaters do not receive punishment from the game authority, which could even lead to possible vindication over any comments received from "legýt" players. The facts are that their perception of victory is enough to make it reality to the one who matters most: themselves.

If you need further proof that the cheaters seem to win in this game, here are a few scenarios to mull over:

1) Faaliyet_Volcom is deemed to be a cheater, and despite having his items deleted before, he now has the same or better items(which were deemed feasible) and was even partied by GlarFist. Could this be a "cheater" within the community vindicated by not only the administrators of the game, but also by his peers who are considered legitimate by most?

2) Tra, a known cheater, was given a clan invitation into Infinity. Here is a person who, though banned a few times by the administrator of the game, still continues to play. Could this be a "cheater" within the community who devalued the judgement passed upon him, and then enjoyed the acceptance of the top alliance on the server?

I don't feel that Ed or I have sided with anyone on this matter, but have taken a vantage point to see both sides of the conflict and comment on it. A view from the mountain of a battle raging below, if you will. My perception of anyone else only matters to me and people who share the same sentiment and quite easily ceases to exist in the minds of others up to and including the subject of said perception.

[TunaFishyMe]

Thomas knows my real name! Stalker!

As much as I dont want to publicly say it, as Rentz clearly demonstrated, this community isnt very good at secluding cheaters. Nesma is a wide-known macroer, yet hes in Oblivion. Majix, Babybash, and Denox hacked 3 players and because they are friends with the clanleader, are still in the clan. Even if Will decides to kick them from the clan, I am sure another top rank clan will pick them up because they are "well-known" and have NP. Old well-known players can cheat and get away with it after a month or two.

About a year ago, random people appeared out of no where in full-shells, lvl 65 etc etc. Everyone on this community secluded them from their clans. The term babashopper was coined because of these players. Once KOM appeared, top clans (Tormentors, Oukasted, AHM) started to buy from him. Everyone knows that his items are sketchy but because they werent going to be deleted they were bought anyways. At first, it was looked down upon, but eventually, no one cared anymore because they were well-known people. 8+ items are no longer questioned but now 3+ uniques. As you see, the bar of a cheaters is only going higher and higher. Soon, 3+ uniques will be sold and no one will say a thing because their friends/clannies are doing it. Then when failay_volcom_the_second comes with 5+ uniques, people will complain. The cycle is endless.

This community only exists not because everyone has the same ideas about cheaters but because of old links, nothing more. There are few people who truly stand by what they say. But what can you expect from a group of 16 year olds?

[Yun_Yuuzhan]

Originally posted by Rentzusuken
That's the point Yun: you don't want to look outside your own field of vision to see that there are other people there with different views who are just as valid as your own. *That's why I continue to question your posts in this topic. *Your points are valid to you and their points are valid to them, irregardless of what the other party thinks. *You label them a cheater and a loser and get a carecup in return, they get the recognition and ranking they desire. *

The only reason I have arguments is because you supply them for me. *You noted that winning is according to the terms of the game, so I ask what the terms are and show that cheaters arrive at those terms, thus "winning" said game. *The only way a cheater will lose in a game is if there is a higher authority that metes out justice and enforces rules, of which there is not. *When you cut through the ideals, you are faced with the facts. *The facts are that the people labeled as cheaters do not care. *The facts are that the people labeled as cheaters attain the goals in the game, quicker and more efficient than you do. *The facts are that the people labeled as cheaters do not receive punishment from the game authority, which could even lead to possible vindication over any comments received from "legýt" players. *The facts are that their perception of victory is enough to make it reality to the one who matters most: *themselves.

If you need further proof that the cheaters seem to win in this game, here are a few scenarios to mull over:

1) *Faaliyet_Volcom is deemed to be a cheater, and despite having his items deleted before, he now has the same or better items(which were deemed feasible) and was even partied by GlarFist. *Could this be a "cheater" within the community vindicated by not only the administrators of the game, but also by his peers who are considered legitimate by most?

2) *Tra, a known cheater, was given a clan invitation into Infinity. *Here is a person who, though banned a few times by the administrator of the game, still continues to play. *Could this be a "cheater" within the community who devalued the judgement passed upon him, and then enjoyed the acceptance of the top alliance on the server?

I don't feel that Ed or I have sided with anyone on this matter, but have taken a vantage point to see both sides of the conflict and comment on it. *A view from the mountain of a battle raging below, if you will. *My perception of anyone else only matters to me and people who share the same sentiment and quite easily ceases to exist in the minds of others up to and including the subject of said perception.

I'm well aware that I'm speaking from my personal view, as cheaters do from theirs. So I don't see how you can say "you say they're a cheater and they say they're not, therefore they win." Lol? How is that again? Because they have higher numbers in the game? Sorry, there's a lot more to winning than just having high numbers. If it's really all about the "personal view", as you say, then a more accurate statement would be that being a winner is in the eyes of the beholder, much like Tuna's earlier statement. That I suppose I can agree upon, but I still feel my viewpoint has more legitimacy because cheaters are not playing by the standard ruleset.

Btw, I said winning is achieving certain goals, yes, but that's not the only part of it. The other part is doing so within the rules. Cheaters do not meet that last part, therefore I maintain they are naught but losers.

Originally posted by Tunafishyme

I read in a law book a couple years ago about Hobbe's view of law. *At first it has to be enforced so that people obey out of fear. *Then the people will obey because they have been doing it for so long. *Last, people will obey because they see the reason for the law. *If the first stage is never initialized, people will never obey the law. *There is no consequences, therefore, there is no guilt. *People may say guilt has nothing to do with consequences but I think they go hand in hand. *If you disagree with me, we'll argue about that later.

Tuna, this is exactly what I've been saying since cheaters were first discovered. K2 failed us in that they did not adequately punish said cheaters, laying down the law and encouraging people to follow the rules. If they had done so from the beginning I believe we would have a much cleaner game right now.

I'd also like to add to Hobbe's theories: some people are intelligent enough to see the reason for the law without big brother punishing them first. Obeying laws to avoid punishment is the lowest form of thinking because that's basically what you did when you were four - "I won't do it cause mommy will be mad."

Somewhat off topic:
Are you familiar with an experiment done in the 60s on independent thinking? In a nutshull, the proctor set up an experiment where one subject was to read word pairs to a "student", who was secretly in on the real reason for the experiment. If the "student" got a word pair wrong, the subject was to administer an electric shock via a machine on their desk that the "student" was supposed to be hooked up to in another room (they were not). Some subjects balked at this and refused to do it entirely, whereas others shocked the "student" repeatedly, even reaching the maximum voltage. The true nature of the experiment was to see how long a person would shock the student for getting the word pairs wrong even though they knew that it was hurting the "student" from the sounds they were making after the second shocking. The proctor told them to continue as a further test to see if they would continue to harm another human being because an authority figure in an experiment old them it was ok. Needless to say, the people who shocked the student the most were labeled the lowest forms of thinking, ie that of a child. The ones who refused outright were said to be on the highest levels of this spectrum, thinking abstractly of the rights and wills of human societies at a level achieved by a select few persons.