Ayman4u - religious discussion

[Futile Rhetoric]

Originally posted by TunaFishyMe
The reason why you dont believe in religion is because you cant see it. *The reason why you dont believe in religion is because you think it cant be proven. *God cant exist because I dont see him. *God cant exist because I cant string a bunch of mathematical equations together and call it proof? *How many of you have actually seen an atom? *You read it in books and everything, but have you actually seen one? *As a second-year Electrical Engineering student, I havent. *Yet, you kids who are still struggling in highschool are telling me it has to be? *Have you seen 2 atoms bond? *have you seen with your own eyes intermolecular forces? *Why is it that you can take something so complicated and hold it as true but can't take something so simple like the belief in a god? *

Sorry, but this is hogwash. People believe in the existence of atoms because it makes for a sound theory, with testable predictions. It may very well be wrong, and if it's shown to be so, people will get off the idea of atoms, and switch to a better theory. While not everyone may understand the intricacies of the theory, or why it is so, people will read a book and take it on authority. People will assume that the writer has researched what he is writing about, and that if he was wrong, a plethora of other writers would've stood up and corrected him. This is how science works. I have never been in space, but I have it on good authority that there's no air there. The same does not hold true for religion; the authority comes from "holy texts", and that is exactly what ubelievers find suspect.

Edit -- I'll put this in the same post, because it's relevant.

What makes me wonder is how people always say the Bible is just a book, it isnt true. You dont believe its true because you havent seen it yourself. However, you are able to accept "science" as the truth just because you read it in your textbook. Have you actually seen the "evidence" science provides? I am not saying science is false, Im just saying you are able to take something so complicated and something you dont truly understand as facts but you feel that people who believe in something as simple as a god are crazy? That is the main point im trying to get at.

You take scientific results in textbooks on trust; you trust in the authority of the books. While you will not go out and test them (although you might, if you're interested enough), the results are certainly verifiable, and they have been verified, by different scientists around the globe. Not so for any holy text; nothing is verifiable, you either choose to believe in them, or you do not. The fact is that very few issues in science are as hotly debated as the existence of a deity (the closest we'd get is string theory, which according to some is akin to metaphysics). You don't take things in science on faith, you take them on authority; authority of other scientists, authority of their work, etc. Unbelievers find the authority of holy texts and institutions non-existant, and therefore do not believe in what they proclaim.

[Sustain]

actually we are all agnostics.

Nobody can prove god exist and nobody can prove god doesnt exist.(all religions)

[Futile Rhetoric]

Originally posted by camaz0tz
obviously there is a higher being cuz something cant come from nothing no matter how u break it down scientifically SOMETHING must have made the first spec of dust th first whatever u think caused the creation of the universe

Why? And if so, where did said higher being come from? Who or what made it? If nothing made it, and you accept that idea, then why must something or someone have made the universe?

but heres the interesting part...this is a dicussion about religion correct? religion is complete bs ur whole belief system is based around following the rules guidelines and examples shown by ur holy books(bible, quran etc) so that u may live a happy peaceful life....now the whole existance of religion has distorted that and taken it from its original value which is why i dislike religion and dont follow it personally...

what makes u think that "God" gives 2 shits about ur prayers? or about ur religion? or the fact u believe in him? do u think he cares if u get the whole world to believe ur ideal about him? do u think he REALLY truely cares if u insult him...rofl that some omniscient being so all powerful and eternal cares so much if u insult him?

Why wouldn't a god care? Because he's all-powerful and all-knowing? I wasn't aware that these things are mutually exclusive.

get it through ur fucking heads arguing over religion over which is best or which is true is POINTLESS cuz it means NOTHING! religions are tools used to control people always has been always will be the original basis of belief were little circles of people no church no control...just a little group of people to tell the stories of jesus and other religious persons to lead an example on how to live ur life peacefully and HAPPILY(<key point) the bible wasnt made til waaaaaaaay later by the catholic church and was then used as a way to manipulate the illiterate masses(nice religion :rollseyes: ) and start wars in the name of it(crusades)

Religions have been used to control people, certainly. Of course, plenty of things are used to control people, which doesn't make those things any less valid. Please get off the idea that you're somehow spouting the one undeniable truth; "get it through your fucking heads" is rather silly, especially considering how wrong you are.

oh but dont worry turks ur not excluded from this with ur muslim belief muslims had their own crusade shortly after the death of muhammud(spelling?) which they would travel around and force 2 things(u had a choice) u could either pay taxes to them or convert to muslim(WHIPEE either way ur FORCED to do something u dont want to) and yes there were wars and many battles over this it wasnt peaceful oh and dont use the excuse "was probably started by someone new to the religion or something like *that" it was ORIGINALLY started by muhammuds(again...spelling?) himself...then after his death was continued on a larger scale by his own brother

His brother, eh. Someone needs to start doing something reading, before spouting nonsense.

atheist is the way to go but not for the reason the mass of idiots for lack of a better term say they are now...as i said in the beginning to argue that there is no god is STUPID there has to be whether hes around still is irrelevent he had to have been here at least in the very beginning to start everything....but to be atheist because u dont wish to follow the mindless fools of religions is a lot more respectable IMO

My God are you conflicted.

[Futile Rhetoric]

Originally posted by Sustain
actually we are all agnostics.

Nobody can prove god exist or it doesnt.

Agnostics embrace the idea that we cannot know, they do not choose to believe that God exists or that He doesn't exist. Obviously, atheists and believers are not agnostics.

[Sustain]

Originally posted by Futile Rhetoric+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Futile Rhetoric)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Sustain

actually we are all agnostics.

Nobody can prove god exist or it doesnt.

Agnostics embrace the idea that we cannot know, they do not choose to believe that God exists or that He doesn't exist. Obviously, atheists and believers are not agnostics.[/b]

They are agnostics.

All.

[Futile Rhetoric]

Originally posted by Sustain+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sustain)</div>

Originally posted by Futile Rhetoric@
<!--QuoteBegin-Sustain

actually we are all agnostics.

Nobody can prove god exist or it doesnt.

Agnostics embrace the idea that we cannot know, they do not choose to believe that God exists or that He doesn't exist. Obviously, atheists and believers are not agnostics.

They are agnostics.

All.[/b]

Oooh-kay.

[Babek]

Originally posted by Sustain
actually we are all agnostics.

Nobody can prove god exist and nobody can prove god doesnt exist.(all religions)

No I'm an atheist (I don't belive in gods), nothing to do with prove/disprove

[camaz0tz]

Originally posted by Futile Rhetoric+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Futile Rhetoric)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-camaz0tz

obviously there is a higher being cuz something cant come from nothing no matter how u break it down scientifically SOMETHING must have made the first spec of dust th first whatever u think caused the creation of the universe

Why? And if so, where did said higher being come from? Who or what made it? If nothing made it, and you accept that idea, then why must something or someone have made the universe?
[/b]

are u....stupid? higher benig as in beyond our level of comprehension as does not follow our logic as he can do whatever the damn hell he wants when he wants including creating himself....u show me in science ANYWHERE where it says something can come from nothing...go on u show me that and ill throw down all beliefs of a higher being right now...if u cant u better stfu and accept there is something higher whether it be aliens, god, allah, whatever

but heres the interesting part...this is a dicussion about religion correct? religion is complete bs ur whole belief system is based around following the rules guidelines and examples shown by ur holy books(bible, quran etc) so that u may live a happy peaceful life....now the whole existance of religion has distorted that and taken it from its original value which is why i dislike religion and dont follow it personally...

what makes u think that "God" gives 2 shits about ur prayers? or about ur religion? or the fact u believe in him? do u think he cares if u get the whole world to believe ur ideal about him? do u think he REALLY truely cares if u insult him...rofl that some omniscient being so all powerful and eternal cares so much if u insult him?

Why wouldn't a god care? Because he's all-powerful and all-knowing? I wasn't aware that these things are mutually exclusive.

so now ur defending the idea of god?...wow u better be careful ur on that border line part where ur showing u actually believe in god but u wanna be a hard ass thats against every1 else if u read the whole thing of things ive said and dont take them uot of context ud see my beliefs and maybe understand why i said what i said...but thats ok ur an idiot

get it through ur fucking heads arguing over religion over which is best or which is true is POINTLESS cuz it means NOTHING! religions are tools used to control people always has been always will be the original basis of belief were little circles of people no church no control...just a little group of people to tell the stories of jesus and other religious persons to lead an example on how to live ur life peacefully and HAPPILY(<key point) the bible wasnt made til waaaaaaaay later by the catholic church and was then used as a way to manipulate the illiterate masses(nice religion :rollseyes: ) and start wars in the name of it(crusades)

Religions have been used to control people, certainly. Of course, plenty of things are used to control people, which doesn't make those things any less valid. Please get off the idea that you're somehow spouting the one undeniable truth; "get it through your fucking heads" is rather silly, especially considering how wrong you are.

there u go showing u really do believe in religion and god again

oh but dont worry turks ur not excluded from this with ur muslim belief muslims had their own crusade shortly after the death of muhammud(spelling?) which they would travel around and force 2 things(u had a choice) u could either pay taxes to them or convert to muslim(WHIPEE either way ur FORCED to do something u dont want to) and yes there were wars and many battles over this it wasnt peaceful oh and dont use the excuse "was probably started by someone new to the religion or something like *that" it was ORIGINALLY started by muhammuds(again...spelling?) himself...then after his death was continued on a larger scale by his own brother

His brother, eh. Someone needs to start doing something reading, before spouting nonsense.

i have done reading...question is have u?

atheist is the way to go but not for the reason the mass of idiots for lack of a better term say they are now...as i said in the beginning to argue that there is no god is STUPID there has to be whether hes around still is irrelevent he had to have been here at least in the very beginning to start everything....but to be atheist because u dont wish to follow the mindless fools of religions is a lot more respectable IMO

My God are you conflicted.

im conflicted?

[Futile Rhetoric]

Originally posted by Vacant
Also, I have yet to see any PROOF of evolution. Don't show me theorys or other books because then, it would be just as the Bible to you. If you wernt there... you dont know exactly what happened. I don't care about your theorys or "facts" (who is to say they are facts, who was there?).. I prefer my faith.

Fossil records? The fact that we've observed micro-evolution? The fact that viruses evolve all the time? Obviously it's extrapolation, you take a set of observations, formulate a rule, and apply it in other places.

And I look at it this way, I enjoy my life as a Christian. I was recently converted less than a couple years ago because of my wife, and ever sense then I have felt more complete. I will take the safe road instead of finding out whats waiting for me at the end and not be prepaired.

Ah yes, I did think I smelled a whiff of that wonderful born-again arrogance when I came in.

Because some of us believe that the Bible was the inspired word of God, writen through prophets and apostles. Again, this all comes back to faith.

Actually, much of the Bible is written by medieval monks. But hey.

Neither was true for me, I grew up in an agnostic environment. I have never experienced any special "miracle". Now you ask why do people believe? Because I am sitting in this office and what do I see out the window? And incredible world.. something so complex I find hard to believe wasent created by someone.

Obviously something even more complex must've created the world, then. And seeing how incredibly complex that something is, something even more complex must've created it. Right? Right?

Looking at the way my mind and body functions makes me shiver how it is even possible, yet I am supposed to believe it was created from a single celled organism? I choose to believe in creation, and from the evidence that was shown to me ... and seeing how old and accurate the ancient manuscripts of the bible, that lead me to believe. From my eyes sir evolution requires just as much faith.

Perhaps you should do some reading on evolution, then. And Darwin said, let there be light! And He saw that it was Good.

Unlike 0000000 I don't believe people are stupid because of what they believe. It is so hard to tell whats truth and whats not truth, but what burns me is people who persecute others because of their faith. If you don't want to believe what we do, fine but please please don't drag us down because of your insecurities. (not targeted to babek, just to future posters) * *

I don't think religion should be discussed here to be honest, but at least there hasent been any major flaming going on yet... well... maybe some. *:lol:

I actually agree with you there, but I'll get to it in a later post.

[Futile Rhetoric]

Originally posted by camaz0tz
are u....stupid? higher benig as in beyond our level of comprehension as does not follow our logic as he can do whatever the damn hell he wants when he wants including creating himself....u show me in science ANYWHERE where it says something can come from nothing...go on u show me that and ill throw down all beliefs of a higher being right now...if u cant u better stfu and accept there is something higher whether it be aliens, god, allah, whatever

I don't think I've seen so many non sequiturs in one paragraph before. First of all, I don't know why you assume that the universe is within our level of comprehension. Secondly, I don't know why you assume that the universe must have been formed out of nothing, instead of just always being there. Thirdly, I don't know why you believe the universe "follows our logic". This is just incredibly poor reasoning on all fronts.

so now ur defending the idea of god?...wow u better be careful ur on that border line part where ur showing u actually believe in god but u wanna be a hard ass thats against every1 else if u read the whole thing of things ive said and dont take them uot of context ud see my beliefs and maybe understand why i said what i said...but thats ok ur an idiot

I can argue both sides of the fence. I can defend the idea of God, and I can fight it. What I believe on the matter, if anything, is really rather unimportant. But I'm not doing either in this case; I'm just pointing out flawed thinking.

there u go showing u really do believe in religion and god again

Really? Again with the assumptions. I'm doing no such thing, merely pointing out that your argument is rather pathetic.

i have done reading...question is have u?

No, I've never read a thing. Now enlighten me... who was prophet Muhammad's brother?

im conflicted?

That was my first guess. Now I see that you're just stupid.

[Futile Rhetoric]

Originally posted by Vacant
Please re-read the Bible if you don't believe me. The Bible is a guideline not only stories. Do you think every story writen through out history was recorded in such a small book? No, the storys that were written all have a moral point to them in the end. There is always something that can be brought to your everyday life from reading them.

So they're not just stories, they're fables? Okay.

What amazes me is how historically accurate the Bible is (no, im not dating back billions of years). I can't really think of where to get the evidence on this, but if you watch the history channel enough you should know. *:lol:

Oh really.

Well, of cource we have free will.. thats quite obvious

Free will is anything but ovious.

It is an illistration to show us that if we sin we will be punished. (granted that we don't repent)

And you get this from Adam and Eve... how?

From a different post --

I can just as easily switch those words with my own. What evidence can a book or documentary give?

Verifiable, reproducible theories and data. Your turn.

As for starving childeren, no one can fully understand God.. thats my only explaination to you. God doesen't care about this physical life... it's only a short period. What is 6 years compaired to an eternity when they die?

Mysterious ways, eh. Quite the euphemism for just good ol' unfairness.

[Futile Rhetoric]

Originally posted by Vacant
Yep there are some things we cant explain. But you know you can't blame everything bad on God... he didn't lock those kids up into a prison, we also have a responsability to take care of our own, not God. He didn't force those kids to starve, only created them. If you feel so angry about starving kids then you and all of us should be doing something to change that istead of blaming God.

So basically, your God is as lazy and callous as most humans?

Take 3rd world countries for example, yes they strugle and there are many childeren and others that suffer, but from the best of my knowledge that has come about because of previous decisions of their ancestors.

Yes, like their decision to be colonised, or sold as slaves. What a bad choice that proved to be.

As for evidences, there are also some for the Bible. There are ancient manuscripts that you can see in museums.... you can go to the same places people from the Bible walked... you can visit where the temple used to be.. you can visit the red sea and so many other places and things just as you can anything else. The Bible is historically accurate. But as you said before, our religion is based on faith we have nothing to prove.

Historically accurate? It has some roots in history, maybe. But "Bethlehem is a real city" to "the Bible is completely and undeniably true" is a rather big leap, don't you think?