This is a discussion on Mormons within the Off Topic forums, part of the Entertainment category; If you are interested in this religion you should read it's history from the very very beginning, how they got ...
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If you are interested in this religion you should read it's history from the very very beginning, how they got their money, how they treated settlers moving through Utah, etc. It is a very fascinating history. Like most religions they, as a group, have great points and do a lot for society. They also have some very controversial tenants and extreme off shoots who still believe in polygamy, female oppression, etc. But over all it's one of the better religions to come a long.
Name one moral thing the mormons have done that could not have been done by a non-mormon. On the other hand you could write a book about all the simply evil beliefs they have propagated. They did good deeds for the same reason any religious person does a good deed; because they are humans for whom doing good brings a sense of happiness. It has nothing to do with their religion.Originally Posted by Rad_Archer
Mormonism was founded by basically the 19th century equivalent of Arestides, a lying, cheating little shitbag, whose followers managed to help sabotage the education of kids and (contrary to popular opinion) resisted the fight to abolish slavery, like most christians. Just like Mohammed and to some extent the mythical Jesus, Joseph Smith created revelations out of thin air in order to gain money, sleep with women and spread his discriminatory views. They were a racist organisation who managed to have a revelation contradicting the earlier racist gospel just in time before a law would have criminalised the church.
It's funny how you think I said their history was good, I didn't say that at all (reread above), I said it's interesting, and it is. I can always count on you to chime in with the negative when it comes to do with religion and I love the comment about criminalizing religions, you should have mentioned the reason why people originally came, settled and founded the USA...to get the hell away from people like you rofl. I think people should have a right to believe anything they want, good thing you live in a society that thinks the same as myself, or you'da been burned at the steak a looong time ago...thanks god for freedom.
It's like everything I type goes over your head. The original colonists were escaping Christian persecution you fucking tool. I am a secularist who believes in freedom of belief, not criminalising it. If you bothered to read any Jefferson he pretty much subscribes to the same views as myself. So yeah, good job I live in a society that respects my right not to believe... what exactly is your point? You're right I would've been burned at the stake a long time ago, due to apologists like you believe that religion is a force for good.
"Like most religions they, as a group, have great points and do a lot for society"
The point you hopelessly missed was that the morons, sorry i mean mormons were a racist organisation and actually acted upon their racism. I'm not going to stop someone from being racist but the moment you act on it, then it rightfully becomes a criminal offense. They didn't change their ways because after a hundred years they realised "hey racism is bad", they did it to avoid prosecution. I don't want to criminalise any religions or belief systems, I am a libertarian. But I also think that it should be a criminal offense to ACT against others on beliefs which are irrational such as racism.
Maybe I should cut and paste some quotes about slavery and black people by Joe Smith to get this through your thick skull.
And yeah, anytime someone posts pro-religious crap I'm going to show them exactly how wrong they are. Got a problem with that? There was absolutely nothing positive about mormonism. It never contributing anything to society (much like the rest of religion). It seems to me that you just read some awful politically-correct textbook in your schoolclass and absorbed it all without question.
I'm the tool because I call you out for your anti-religious stances, you insult me because in every discussion we have had about things like this, you resort to a desperate attempt to not appear like the fanatical religious hater that you are. Unfortunately for you, using broad sweeping generalizations like "nothing positive about Mormonism" shows that you have no actual knowledge at all but can only back up your "opinions" based on emotion and ooooold history, which I invited anyone to study who was interested in the subject. Being such an anti spiritual person as yourself, you should at least learn basic psychology so you don't look so obviously uninformed. At least the few great atheists that ever acheived anything could articulate with logic and reason their dislike for religion. It's like me saying I don't like Egyptians because they dominated or enslaved 3/4's of the world at one point.
I am not a Mormon but anyone can search out the positive contributions they have given since their less then tasteful beginnings. You act like all people from all times are all the same, I hope the Spanish Catholics don't read this and come hunting me for the remarks I have made here!!! Oh wait, they don't do that anymore, the ones that did are back in time and here we are in a free society where you and I can have a discussion and agree that we completely disagree.
And telling me why and how my country was founded is like me trying to tell you about your countries past on the subject of oppression lol...
I was adopted through the Mormon church when I was a baby. I grew up involed with the church up untill I was about 8 or 9 when my parents no longer wanted to be involed with it. The people I know in the church are good people , the hold strong family values and they are honest people. How ever there are things with the church I do not agree with and I think are typically amreican and flawed. Also the story of how Joseph smith foud the book of Mormon and translated it is also doubtfull to me but then loads of stuff in the bible is like that.
They have had some press about them balleting to outlaw gay marriage in Calafornia , which I guess is no different to some other christian movements but they are a wealthy organisation too.
I see them like any other religious group , they have values which I can understand and have views I disagree with. They are no worse or no better than any religion in my eyes. I am able to give a fair answer because I had so much involement with the church over here in the UK. I still talk to seniour members of the church as they all check to see how the family is doing from time to time. Also my parents have been together since 1975 so that in it self is a pretty remarkable thing and the mormons helped get them a family which is what they wanted so bad.
This is exactly my point. From first hand knowledge you can articulate the good and negative points of this particular religion. I too have many historical and theological disagreements (how they originally got wealthy is crazy story by itself!), but you can do that with just about any religion or any belief, as well as both medicine and science as subjects.
My point is that if you do want to espouse a point of view, then back it up and show that you looked at it intelligently from all sides, not just as a religious zealot NOR as a spiteful hater of all things spiritual. Lets be realistic here, the world is more free then it has ever been. We have more technology, the best science and medicine then ever before and we have the time to study and freedom to decide for ourselves, if these religions did not have some positive thing to offer, then they would not have parishioners. No one is tying anyone down to stay in Utah ffs lol.
Speaking of the gay rights issue here in CA, it was not the right wing republicans who voted the prop down, it was the poor and middle class Mexicans who voted it down. It rarely gets media play but if you lived here in CA you would have seen it. I had a good laugh when the gay rights activists couldn't use their bullying tactics against people who have, essentially nothing to lose and don't give 2 shits if people are mad about it or not lol.
Still haven't shown one good deed the mormons have done purely out of their belief. I'm glad you think they are nice people. I could go to a BNP rally with a shaved head and funnily enough I'm sure they would be nice to me too. But I shouldn't compare the mormons to the BNP, the BNP are less racist and have *some* basis for their beliefs.
It isn't my job to teach you about religions. You "heard" or read that mormons are racist but you don't actually know that do you lol. I think you must only read anti-religious articles and don't use your own judgment, logic, nor reasoning, either that or your so blinded by your vicious hatred of all things spiritual you are only capable of latching on to a sentence here and their in volumes that make your small minded views "correct." I can just see you reading an article in the newest issue of"Hate Religion" and screaming out, "see mom, all Mormons want the colored man dead dead dead!!!!" By the way, I love your comparison to the nazi skinhead thing, that must have taken you some serious brain power to think up, you totally convinced me that this organization of millions are just an offshoot of the third reich and everyone of them wants to lynch the negro like it's 1806. You should just clump all monotheistic religions and their followers as backwards racist garbage who never did anything anywhere because their ancient scriptures have practices that are rarely practiced in any way in any modern country worth living in. I look forward to seeing the giant list of Atheist societies that have sprung up over the last 3k years that accomplished or contributed anything, oh ya there haven't been any lol.
The ironic thing that I do not understand, is that you are so down on their history and refuse to see them in a current light, yet I have personally seen you more then once talk about how you hate Turks and all Muslims. So, aside from being a complete hypocrite, what do you care if anyone hates anyone else for any reason at all any way? Or is that again some desperate attempt to validate your fanatical anti religious views?
You're such a fucking tool, I don't know how you can sit there and type that crap and actually believe it.
You don't know what atheism is, and you didn't know that mormons were a racist organisation before you posted that drivel earlier. Atheism isn't an ideology or belief system, you can't found anything on it. It is the rejection of one claim, nothing more. I get it, I embarrassed you and now you are trying to dig yourself out of your hole. I never compared them to Nazis, I compared them to the BNP party; a legal organisation who are outwardly nice to people they consider "their own" but founded upon hateful ideologies.
One of my close friends from school was a mormon, and he wasn't totally stupid either. He was friendly to people and tolerant. Unfortunately for him, and for yourself, he was completely unaware of the history of the church and its teachings until a couple of decades ago. We aren't talking ancient history here. By the time we left for university, he was an atheist, he felt disgusted that his community had lied to him about the truth for so long. This is how religions work, brainwashing and deception. It's all in the best intentions though.
Regarding their racism, until just before a law came into force outlawing the practice, the mormons didn't allow blacks to join. Indeed one of the core tenets of the religion is that black skin is a punishment from god. Joseph Smith himself was a firm advocate of slavery, believing it was his right and the right of all mormons to own slaves. Similarly, the mormon church holds very dim views of women and gays. It isn't a very nice organisation unless you happen to be white, male, and straight, which I'm guessing you and felix both are. Funny that.
I can back up everything I type, you can't, that's the difference between us. Your posts read like the garbage politically correct "diversity and tolerance" textbooks I had to read when I was 14 that tried to teach us to be sheep.
I'm sure that in 1939 you would be sitting there telling us to respect fascism because everyone has a right to their belief. Luckily for the whole world someone stood up to their bullying and destructive belief system and vowed to fight it, just as he vowed to fight Islam aswell. A certain Winston Churchill.
Compairing the Mormon relgion with the BNP is a very new angel Cy!
I still have interaction with church members for a few reason but none of them are people I would call friends. When my parents stopped attending I was disapointed in the attitude of people who had been their "friends" for 30 years snubb them because they were not living by the word of mormon any more and they were pretty rude to them at times when they found out I was working for a brewery. As with every organisation like this you have good and bad people , and then you have the people in charge. Also the American and UK sides of the church are very different in their degrees of influence and pratice.
The one view I always disagreed with is how they teach you that their religion is the only right religion and that it is their duty to convert people of all other religions. I never agreed with that view one bit and still don't to this day.
He doesn't see any good in any religions, look at ALL his posts, look at his sig, look at the post you did about how some Mormons adopted you and yet he STILL doesn't see this as anything worth while, as he sits on the sidelines of life criticizing anyone and ripping into them with limp attempts to insult them lol, amazing.
What crap, be specific. Stop using generalizations, you will never win a debate or argument by being vague.
Tool, that's your insult for me? Tool? Again? Genius.
You never embarrassed me ever and never will, you don't have it in you. However, it is clear to see that I frustrate you. Your thoughts and comments are all over the place, gain control of yourself and try to write on subject, stop using your lack of emotional control to get the best of you and maybe you can get a real point across. We already get you hate all religions, lets find out why and instead of acting like a hysterical child, why don't you take your blinders off, be honest, and show both sides of a coin in proving your points. Not showing 2 obvious sides that are there, shows just how you've let your emo...emotions get the best of you, again and a lack in a thorough evaluation of the a topic (any topic but in this particular case LDS).
I commented on this guys post, reread it because apperently you deduced way more out of the few things I said and altered them in your obviously twisted mind. Use exact quotes, do it.
You are racist, prejudice and a bigot by your own admissions on these forums. Again, what do you care about how things once were in this topic of religion? You are a hypocrite and that it can't be denied. You lose a lot of credibility when you don't hold up to the standard as you throw stones at those who you accuse.
You had a run in at 14 with someone who tried to convert you to their religion and now you hate the religion. At least, finally, we are getting to some of the basic roots of your distaste for all things spiritual (I love the use of words like sheep and brainwashing rofl). I think you should just come out and say what a bad time you had instead of trying to make it sound like you have actually taken a true, impartial evaluation of religion (both religion as a whole and the massive amount of individual religions that fall under the subject). I think your buddy Frued could teach you a lot about why you are the way you, you seem textbook.
Just to point out a few of your blatantly incorrect conclusions: 1. I am not white (funny that smart guy). 2. I am not a Christian. 3. I am not PC but I will fight with hysterical trash on both sides when they unneccesarily trample on the rights and freedoms of others - including a right to religion or not and no fascism isn't a religion, Mormons aren't like BNP (rofl at that comment), and I have studied all the major religions and ideologies and many minor, new, religions as well as the few great atheists and their beliefs (or lack of). I have read the Book of Mormon, New and Old Test, Koran, Talmud, Vedic Hymns, Book of the Dead and many many many others. I even know the passage in which you refer to about Laminites but if you think that this is what every (or even most) Mormons believe your high on crack lol. Even stating so, shows just how backwards you are and again, goes to my very first response to you personally and the ONLY point I was making. That is, you just pick out things to hate about everything religious and you never, have EVER acknowledged that religion has done anything good in history, and that my good man, is fucking crazy. Take a good look around you at every great civilization, not one was born from the idea that we are all just a lump of mud, sorry hate to break it to you lol.
Personally, I mean this very sincerely, I could give 2 shits what you believe. However, I know your agenda like I know a bible thumping JW and you, even though you think you aren't, are sooo much the same, just the far ends of the same spectrum, it's hilarious. What this topic has sort of become, is just my outing the fact that you can't give an educated reason for disliking religions as a whole. You can keep spewing derogatory comments like brainwashing, sheep, and using asinine comparisons to the BNP and oh ya, Churchill and WW2 and Muslims ROFL, omg hilarious....thanks for the shits and giggles, if I get embarrassed, it's for you.
Last edited by Rad_Archer; 02-03-2010 at 06:54 AM.
all religions have their goods and bads. some take it to the extreme but mormons in my opinion are pretty naive. if u pulled that shit that joseph smith pulled back then today they would laugh in ur face
I personally think that Mormons are kind and giving. While actively serving in the church we would often host many food, clothing, and blood drives for the community while also delivering food baskets and presents to those less fortunate than us around Christmas time.
I also know that even though many people find Missionaries too be annoying even if you decide not to join our religion for the most part we will check in on people to see how they are doing and see if they need any help with anything.
I never actively studied the church while i was there. I more or less just showed up and tried to keep myself occupied until it was over. However i don't think that at any point in time Mormons were racist. If you could actually point me in the direction of the documents or facts that prove Joseph Smith was racist then i will believe you but until then i'm not going to believe it. The church i grew up in had many black people and other races but was for the most part populated by white people.
At first i laughed at the statement that we held dim view of women and gays but the more i think about it from an outside view the more i understand. Women cannot become members of the priesthood who hold a "higher power" that keeps them in touch with god enabling them to do things others can't.
As for gays mormons just like any other christians and many people don't believe in it. Marriage was ment to be between a man and a woman and is something i believe in. It doesn't mean i'm going out shunning gays and lesbians away and spitting on them. It just means i don't believe in what they are doing.
I am no longer an active member of the church, however, i recognize myself as a mormon for the time being and believe in what they do. There are some things i disagree with and tbh i'm probably not going to be an active member again but growing up in the church has taught me the values i have today. Just look at the 10 commandments. I have no regrets from being with the church. It's taught me how to be a good person and created a lot of good memories for me. Even though i don't believe in all of it it's what made me who i am today.
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