Hey America

[T_rey]

I used to play tackle football as a kid with no pads, does that make me more bad ass then Ray Lewis? I mean that's basically what your saying right, that's what your whole "Argument" is based on?

Your seriously gonna sit here and tell me this is pussy [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stNR_ju6nVs&feature=related"]YouTube - NFL hardest hits[/ame] just because they have pads?

Pads don't stop your limbs from breaking, and pads don't stop you from getting paralyzed. They help a bit, but it still hurts when you get popped in your chin by someones hard helmet, or hit in your ribs by someones facemask (2 things that can't happen in rugby). Now I'm not saying Rugby's a pussy sport, I think Football/Hockey/Rugby are all the hardest hitting sports, but you can't be serious when you sit here and say pussy's play football haha.

PS: Honestly, your right it is my favorite sport. However I don't need to defend it from being a pussy sport, no one in their right mind would think that... Except Europeans who get a hard on from trying to put down America >.<

[tHeUnBeAtAbLe]

Yeah way to try to win an argument by showing the `hardest/best` hits in football. As I said, just unbelievable how much bias you put into your arguments.

Let me show you this
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQhpfPQDw9M[/ame]

Now compare. Just having that mentality and the balls to actually take down someone full strength without an armor on itself beats a person going in with the armor. See in rugby, both the tackler and the person that gets tackled get hurt pretty freaking badly (less the tackler), however in football, the person tackling hardly feels a thing as he is the one initiating and having his rubber condom on him, while yes, in some situations, the person that gets tackled does get wacked pretty badly... but not cause of the tackle itself, but the actually bad positioning/timing they`re in (ie. mid air catching,..) Point being, with more safety you get more confidence, however comparing the videos it shows otherwise...

As for your personal experience, no it doesn`t make you more badass then Ray Lewis as you`re just a kid and probably couldn`t even get someone down, or hurt a fly if you wanted to. Trust me, I`m talking from experience too, I used to play high school football as well, QB at first and then reciever, and there were times where I would simply even drag people that tried to tackle me... that`s how kids play football, so really playing football at a young age without armor is nothing serious, while on the other hand Ray Lewis is an actual football player. Also adding from my personal experience, when I started off as QB, I got tackled a shit load of times by big boys (yeah we had shitty linebackers, thus why I switched after to reciever) and even with the lighter pads and from `serious high school blows`done on me, it tickled. Yeah the actual football players hit harder, but still, the armor itself is big protection.

And finally, I never said football is a pussy sport, but it is a pussy sport compared to rugby. I just had to remind you Americans that football is only really played/watched within your boarders and pretty much no where else... And yeah lol, who doesn`t hate America lol...

[Disturbed]

I just noticed that the rugby players are half the size of NFL players and are mostly white, no wonder they don't wear pads lol..

[T_rey]

Yeah way to try to win an argument by showing the `hardest/best` hits in football. As I said, just unbelievable how much bias you put into your arguments.

Isn't this as hypocritical as you can get? You sit here and say you hate America and anything about America, no doubt you would hate their favorite sport, and try to bash on it whenever you got the chance. So your opinion is just as biased for the opposing viewpoint, yet you can't seem to grasp a hold of that fact.

Now compare. Just having that mentality and the balls to actually take down someone full strength without an armor on itself beats a person going in with the armor. See in rugby, both the tackler and the person that gets tackled get hurt pretty freaking badly (less the tackler), however in football, the person tackling hardly feels a thing as he is the one initiating and having his rubber condom on him, while yes, in some situations, the person that gets tackled does get wacked pretty badly... but not cause of the tackle itself, but the actually bad positioning/timing they`re in (ie. mid air catching,..) Point being, with more safety you get more confidence, however comparing the videos it shows otherwise...

If you don't think it hurts to tackle someone in football just because you have pads on then you are crazy. That kick returner who just got the ball when in open field runs over 20 mph, your going to sit here and say it doesn't hurt to run head on into them as a defensive men? People don't get going that fast in rugby.

As for your personal experience, no it doesn`t make you more badass then Ray Lewis as you`re just a kid and probably couldn`t even get someone down, or hurt a fly if you wanted to. Trust me, I`m talking from experience too, I used to play high school football as well, QB at first and then reciever, and there were times where I would simply even drag people that tried to tackle me... that`s how kids play football, so really playing football at a young age without armor is nothing serious, while on the other hand Ray Lewis is an actual football player. Also adding from my personal experience, when I started off as QB, I got tackled a shit load of times by big boys (yeah we had shitty linebackers, thus why I switched after to reciever) and even with the lighter pads and from `serious high school blows`done on me, it tickled. Yeah the actual football players hit harder, but still, the armor itself is big protection.

To have played football so much in high school, it makes me laugh how you don't seem know simple position names as a quarterback should , your lineman are the ones that protected you, linebackers were on the complete opposite side of the ball. So I'm going to come to the conclusion that you have actually never played, or you played for some really shitty team up in canada where they don't really know the game anyway. You used to talk about how good at volleyball you were, if Football's such a pussy sport I would just stick with that.

If you can't compare me as a kid to Ray Lewis, you can't compare football players to rugby players.. Simple as that because the size difference is to big, the biggest rugby player (Some Samoan I looked up) isn't even close to simple Julius Peppers size wise, and hes just a defensive end.

And finally, I never said football is a pussy sport, but it is a pussy sport compared to rugby. I just had to remind you Americans that football is only really played/watched within your boarders and pretty much no where else... And yeah lol, who doesn`t hate America lol...

You actually said it was a sissy sport when comparing with soccer. However, like every other topic like this yall have to switch it over to comparing it to rugby. If your here to remind me that only Americans watch football, then how do you know such players as Ray Lewis? I couldn't even name one rugby player, yet you can sit here and probably name a few professional football players, you must watch it some huh?

Heres some quick stats and the last thing I'll say in this topic, I hate feeding into your arguments, I feel its the only form of communication you know though.

Fastest Football Player
Trindan Holliday
10.02 100m Run
Path to the Draft » Fastest College Football Player Ever in 100M Drafted in 6th Round of 2010 NFL Draft

Fastest Rugby Player
Toderai Chavanga
10.27 100m Run
Fastest Rugby Player Rugby Gamers

Strongest Football Player (Bench Press Wise)
Larry Allen
700 Pounds
Sport Stars & Celebrity Bench Press Statistics

Strongest Rugby Player (Bench Press Wise)
Andrew Sherdian
495 Pounds
Answers.com - Who is the strongest player in rugby

Biggest Football Player
Langston Walker
6'8" ~~ Weighs 366 Pounds
"NFL Football" Biggest offensive players in the NFL - Realfootball365.com

Biggest Rugby Player
Henry Tuilagi
6'1" ~~ Weighs 280 Pounds
Henry Tuilagi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So in conclusion you can compare the 2 all you want, but in the end men lie, women lie, and numbers don't. Football players on an average are bigger/stronger/faster then rugby players. Here's a quote I found while looking it up that I thought was pretty accurate.

"If there's one thing more pathetic than an American trying to defend the political bent of his country to foreigners, it's a bunch of foreigners whose collective inferiority complex is so desperate that they get hopped-up over some percieved advantage in sporting tastes."

[Draven]

Isn't this as hypocritical as you can get? You sit here and say you hate America and anything about America, no doubt you would hate their favorite sport, and try to bash on it whenever you got the chance. So your opinion is just as biased for the opposing viewpoint, yet you can't seem to grasp a hold of that fact.



If you don't think it hurts to tackle someone in football just because you have pads on then you are crazy. That kick returner who just got the ball when in open field runs over 20 mph, your going to sit here and say it doesn't hurt to run head on into them as a defensive men? People don't get going that fast in rugby.




To have played football so much in high school, it makes me laugh how you don't seem know simple position names as a quarterback should , your lineman are the ones that protected you, linebackers were on the complete opposite side of the ball. So I'm going to come to the conclusion that you have actually never played, or you played for some really shitty team up in canada where they don't really know the game anyway. You used to talk about how good at volleyball you were, if Football's such a pussy sport I would just stick with that.

If you can't compare me as a kid to Ray Lewis, you can't compare football players to rugby players.. Simple as that because the size difference is to big, the biggest rugby player (Some Samoan I looked up) isn't even close to simple Julius Peppers size wise, and hes just a defensive end.



You actually said it was a sissy sport when comparing with soccer. However, like every other topic like this yall have to switch it over to comparing it to rugby. If your here to remind me that only Americans watch football, then how do you know such players as Ray Lewis? I couldn't even name one rugby player, yet you can sit here and probably name a few professional football players, you must watch it some huh?

Heres some quick stats and the last thing I'll say in this topic, I hate feeding into your arguments, I feel its the only form of communication you know though.

Fastest Football Player
Trindan Holliday
10.02 100m Run
Path to the Draft » Fastest College Football Player Ever in 100M Drafted in 6th Round of 2010 NFL Draft

Fastest Rugby PlayerToderai Chavanga
10.27 100m Run
Fastest Rugby Player Rugby Gamers

Strongest Football Player (Bench Press Wise)
Larry Allen
700 Pounds
Sport Stars & Celebrity Bench Press Statistics

Strongest Rugby Player (Bench Press Wise)
Andrew Sherdian
495 Pounds
Answers.com - Who is the strongest player in rugby

Biggest Football Player
Langston Walker
6'8" ~~ Weighs 366 Pounds
"NFL Football" Biggest offensive players in the NFL - Realfootball365.com

Biggest Rugby Player
Henry Tuilagi
6'1" ~~ Weighs 280 Pounds
Henry Tuilagi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So in conclusion you can compare the 2 all you want, but in the end men lie, women lie, and numbers don't. Football players on an average are bigger/stronger/faster then rugby players. Here's a quote I found while looking it up that I thought was pretty accurate.

"If there's one thing more pathetic than an American trying to defend the political bent of his country to foreigners, it's a bunch of foreigners whose collective inferiority complex is so desperate that they get hopped-up over some percieved advantage in sporting tastes."

props bro... well said.

i was looking this stuff up as well on the internet while u made this post. Average size of rugby players is like 5'8" 190lbs... Thats the size of Garret Wolfe.... one of the smallest players in the NFL.

next thing to check out is Sports Science , ran by Espn.

[T_rey]

props bro... well said.

i was looking this stuff up as well on the internet while u made this post. Average size of rugby players is like 5'8" 190lbs... Thats the size of Garret Wolfe.... one of the smallest players in the NFL.

next thing to check out is Sports Science , ran by Espn.

Sports science is one of my favorite things to watch haha, the one on Mike Vick had me in "aww" xD.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6PNmSCJnw8&feature=related]YouTube - Why is Mike Vick good[/ame]

[Magyk]

If u wanna fight about it, take it to the streets. Thats where fans meet do discuss stuff in a gorwnup and civilized manner.

[tHeUnBeAtAbLe]

Isn't this as hypocritical as you can get? You sit here and say you hate America and anything about America, no doubt you would hate their favorite sport, and try to bash on it whenever you got the chance. So your opinion is just as biased for the opposing viewpoint, yet you can't seem to grasp a hold of that fact.

Just because I hate America due to political reasons mostly, and their actions, doesn`t mean I hate them for their sports. As I said, I`m an all around athlete, which includes me playing/liking football and baseball, both pretty much American sports. So it would kind of make it hypocritical if I said I hated America for inventing the sport even though I actually like and play them?

If you don't think it hurts to tackle someone in football just because you have pads on then you are crazy. That kick returner who just got the ball when in open field runs over 20 mph, your going to sit here and say it doesn't hurt to run head on into them as a defensive men? People don't get going that fast in rugby.

No it doesn`t. It tickles. I might be crazy or I might be just Iron Man,... but no it doesn`t.


To have played football so much in high school, it makes me laugh how you don't seem know simple position names as a quarterback should , your lineman are the ones that protected you, linebackers were on the complete opposite side of the ball. So I'm going to come to the conclusion that you have actually never played, or you played for some really shitty team up in canada where they don't really know the game anyway. You used to talk about how good at volleyball you were, if Football's such a pussy sport I would just stick with that.

I really don`t know if you can`t read or what, but I clearly said I played for my high school team, which means it`s nothing pro, but just an inner educational system competition. And honestly, good pick up, but I do have to crush your hopes with saying that I write these posts in 2-3 minutes, thus having tons of spelling/grammar mistakes, as you can tell I`m the person that doesn`t give a hoot.

If you can't compare me as a kid to Ray Lewis, you can't compare football players to rugby players.. Simple as that because the size difference is to big, the biggest rugby player (Some Samoan I looked up) isn't even close to simple Julius Peppers size wise, and hes just a defensive end.


You actually said it was a sissy sport when comparing with soccer. However, like every other topic like this yall have to switch it over to comparing it to rugby. If your here to remind me that only Americans watch football, then how do you know such players as Ray Lewis? I couldn't even name one rugby player, yet you can sit here and probably name a few professional football players, you must watch it some huh?

Dude, once again you`re making up shit. I haven`t said it`s a sissy sport compared to soccer. I said it`s a sissy sport compared to rugby. I also said soccer is the #1 watched and played sport in the world, while football is only watched and played within your boarders, thus stating that soccer is much more popular.

And I`ll say it for like the 100th time, I like football, I play football once in a while now, so thus meaning I do sometimes watch it. More specifically pretty much only Superbowl, so yes I would know quite a few players.

Heres some quick stats and the last thing I'll say in this topic, I hate feeding into your arguments, I feel its the only form of communication you know though.

Fastest Football Player
Trindan Holliday
10.02 100m Run
Path to the Draft » Fastest College Football Player Ever in 100M Drafted in 6th Round of 2010 NFL Draft

Fastest Rugby Player
Toderai Chavanga
10.27 100m Run
Fastest Rugby Player Rugby Gamers

Strongest Football Player (Bench Press Wise)
Larry Allen
700 Pounds
Sport Stars & Celebrity Bench Press Statistics

Strongest Rugby Player (Bench Press Wise)
Andrew Sherdian
495 Pounds
Answers.com - Who is the strongest player in rugby

Biggest Football Player
Langston Walker
6'8" ~~ Weighs 366 Pounds
"NFL Football" Biggest offensive players in the NFL - Realfootball365.com

Biggest Rugby Player
Henry Tuilagi
6'1" ~~ Weighs 280 Pounds
Henry Tuilagi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So in conclusion you can compare the 2 all you want, but in the end men lie, women lie, and numbers don't. Football players on an average are bigger/stronger/faster then rugby players. Here's a quote I found while looking it up that I thought was pretty accurate.

lol if you finished a Statistics course in university, you would know that numbers are the ones that actually lie. Like Mark Twain said, `There is lies, damned lies, and then there is statistics`. I did a general comparison of somewhat the biggest football and rugby players, and well no shit you`re going to say football players are bigger... they`re wearing their big ass armor, no duh. You get the point.

"If there's one thing more pathetic than an American trying to defend the political bent of his country to foreigners, it's a bunch of foreigners whose collective inferiority complex is so desperate that they get hopped-up over some percieved advantage in sporting tastes."

/10 charsss

[Draven]

If u wanna fight about it, take it to the streets. Thats where fans meet do discuss stuff in a gorwnup and civilized manner.

lmao.... ...

@unbeatable...

from listening to you talk about football, you havent played nor watched it enough. Im gonna be honest, dont know much about rugby, but this conversation has caused me to look at it and look up things concerning it. Its basically the father of American football... NFL players sustain about the same injuries and amounts as professional rugby players do....yet they were armor(pads). Imagine yourself as a wide reciever(guy who runs the pass routes and catches the ball) coming across the middle to catch a pass.... ur full speed. What you dont see is the safety , use Ed Reed for example.... you dont see him waiting on you. He spears you head first with his helmet and drops you paralysed to the ground. You went from running about 20 mph...to 0 in 0secs.... its the equivalent of running full force into a brick wall.... yet your getting hit by a helmet and not a naked human head.

there's a reason that American football players where pads/helmets and rugby players dont.... and its not about who's tougher. The american game took Rugby and developed it into wat is it today. You can take an NFL player and put him on a rugby team and he's gonna do ok.. thats been proven. But what really hasnt been proven is taking a rugby player and him making it on an NFL team. For starters, rugby players size would limit them on what they can do in the American game... most rugby players are about the size of a kicker on an American team. Just so you know... the kicker is generally the biggest wuss athlete on the team.

i think thats all that needs to be said about that.

[loveya]

EDITED BY DRAVEN :im an american, i deleted your pic. Offends me.

You know theres no offense or defense teams in rugby so the players play both positions unlike american football where theres offense and a defense squads, so thying comparing them by who is biggest and who can lift more is rly silly T_rey

[T_rey]

EDITED BY DRAVEN :im an american, i deleted your pic. Offends me.

You know theres no offense or defense teams in rugby so the players play both positions unlike american football where theres offense and a defense squads, so thying comparing them by who is biggest and who can lift more is rly silly T_rey

Whats silly is saying football players a pussies for wearing pads. If I can't compare the size and strength of football players (The reason they wear pads) to the size and strength of rugby players (The reason they don't wear pads), then what gives you the right to call them pussies?

When football was invented there were no pads worn, later they introduced the "Leather" helmet, until now where they are fully padded (The Evolution of football). However, it only evolved as the players themselves evolved, back when the sport was invented football players were the size of your average Rugby pro. Over time they started bulking up, getting faster/stronger/bigger then ever before, which introduced the use of pads into the game. Again, nothing pussy about it its just common sense, and the main factor against the two is a huge size difference in the average player.

Now if your not trying to compare who's more pussy or not, and your trying to compare something like endurance of the 2 sports, then I would look more towards the Wideouts/Cornerbacks/Safety's/Halfbacks of football. They all run for 60mins, with a full set of "Armor" on as you call it, a lot harder then running around with nothing, while being some of the smallest guys out there always looking for that big linebacker to knock them out, play after play doing the same thing, running and getting smacked. No doubt rugby players probably have more endurance then linemen, however Rugby players aren't big enough to even be considered a linemen, you shouldn't compare the 2 because they have completely different roles in the game.

[loveya]

Dont compare people compare the sports, american football is for sissys compared to rugby, that is final. It takes alot more to play rugby than play football

[tHeUnBeAtAbLe]

lmao.... ...

@unbeatable...

from listening to you talk about football, you havent played nor watched it enough. Im gonna be honest, dont know much about rugby, but this conversation has caused me to look at it and look up things concerning it. Its basically the father of American football... NFL players sustain about the same injuries and amounts as professional rugby players do....yet they were armor(pads). Imagine yourself as a wide reciever(guy who runs the pass routes and catches the ball) coming across the middle to catch a pass.... ur full speed. What you dont see is the safety , use Ed Reed for example.... you dont see him waiting on you. He spears you head first with his helmet and drops you paralysed to the ground. You went from running about 20 mph...to 0 in 0secs.... its the equivalent of running full force into a brick wall.... yet your getting hit by a helmet and not a naked human head.

there's a reason that American football players where pads/helmets and rugby players dont.... and its not about who's tougher. The american game took Rugby and developed it into wat is it today. You can take an NFL player and put him on a rugby team and he's gonna do ok.. thats been proven. But what really hasnt been proven is taking a rugby player and him making it on an NFL team. For starters, rugby players size would limit them on what they can do in the American game... most rugby players are about the size of a kicker on an American team. Just so you know... the kicker is generally the biggest wuss athlete on the team.

i think thats all that needs to be said about that.

Whatever floats your boat buddy, but if you know me well enough for the past 3 years on these forums, you would know I don`t lose arguments, and will just keep coming back for me to make you realize that you`re actually wrong.

So by all means, if you feel like you`ve automatically won something by stating I don`t/didn`t play football, by all means, as I said, whatever floats your boat. However, I said so otherwise, so just because I might know stuff about, I have a feeling threatens you that I just might point out the true facts about the sport. So far, I`ve spoken truthfully about it, yet you guys choose to deny it and think it`s the almighty sport America has invited.

As for your `rugby players and football players having same amount of injury`... I mean, I have done as many successful passes and thrown more yards then Michael Vick or Tom Brady combined... kinda get my drift? Just because you say so, doesn`t mean it`s necessarily true. Prove it.

As for your 20km/h to 0km/h in 0 seconds... technically that`s impossible, but ok, I forgive your physics. But either way, I kind of understand what you are trying to express, but then again, take soccer for example, if someone kicks the ball at 50km/h and it hits you in the balls... will it hurt? Fuck yeah, you`ll lose respiration for quite some time. Will it hurt if you get hit by it in the chest or the ass? Yeah, but it`s more like a stinger then an actual pain. Same thing in comparing rugby and football. In rugby you do skin to skin contact, which at the same speed is much more painful then armor to armor contact. I really don`t even know why I`m trying to explain this to you, I mean after all I`m the guy who`s somewhat an expert on the human body, and sports medicine/injuries or whatever you want to classify it as (if you`re wondering, yes that`s what I`m studying medical/kinesiology).

And once again, take off the armor off the football players and compare them. Height wise sure rugby players are small, but height is no correlation factor, however body mass or size, is quite the same, except with the factor that rugby players have the balls to go into direct contact without wearing anything.

I await for your next response dearly.

[T_rey]

Dont compare people compare the sports, american football is for sissys compared to rugby, that is final. It takes alot more to play rugby than play football

Sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to someone who was as ignorant as you. Its kinda ironic how you say don't compare the people, then you say the people that play football are sissies in the same sentence? Yet I just did all the comparisons, and football players come out on top in every category... But it's still just a bunch of sissies playing it... Sissies who are better athletes than any that play rugby...

@ Unbeatable, the size is not the same, no matter how much you try to butter it up. I mean hell I gave you the size of one offensive linemen in the NFL, whos 6'8" 366 pounds (Which in reality is a pretty average weight for an O-Lineman in the NFL) without pads on (If you thought football players were measured with pads than your sadly mistaken, they measure in naked/or with compression shorts on, pads just add to their overall size during games). That Henry Tuilagi I gave you for rugby is really oversized for a rugby player as well, no where near the average, and thats one player, compared to about 200 that size in the NFL.

PS: I find it rather fun to debate about something im interested in, a lot more fun then debates about whos epenis is bigger while playing KO.

[Draven]

Whatever floats your boat buddy, but if you know me well enough for the past 3 years on these forums, you would know I don`t lose arguments, and will just keep coming back for me to make you realize that you`re actually wrong.

So by all means, if you feel like you`ve automatically won something by stating I don`t/didn`t play football, by all means, as I said, whatever floats your boat. However, I said so otherwise, so just because I might know stuff about, I have a feeling threatens you that I just might point out the true facts about the sport. So far, I`ve spoken truthfully about it, yet you guys choose to deny it and think it`s the almighty sport America has invited.

As for your `rugby players and football players having same amount of injury`... I mean, I have done as many successful passes and thrown more yards then Michael Vick or Tom Brady combined... kinda get my drift? Just because you say so, doesn`t mean it`s necessarily true. Prove it.

As for your 20km/h to 0km/h in 0 seconds... technically that`s impossible, but ok, I forgive your physics. But either way, I kind of understand what you are trying to express, but then again, take soccer for example, if someone kicks the ball at 50km/h and it hits you in the balls... will it hurt? Fuck yeah, you`ll lose respiration for quite some time. Will it hurt if you get hit by it in the chest or the ass? Yeah, but it`s more like a stinger then an actual pain. Same thing in comparing rugby and football. In rugby you do skin to skin contact, which at the same speed is much more painful then armor to armor contact. I really don`t even know why I`m trying to explain this to you, I mean after all I`m the guy who`s somewhat an expert on the human body, and sports medicine/injuries or whatever you want to classify it as (if you`re wondering, yes that`s what I`m studying medical/kinesiology).

And once again, take off the armor off the football players and compare them. Height wise sure rugby players are small, but height is no correlation factor, however body mass or size, is quite the same, except with the factor that rugby players have the balls to go into direct contact without wearing anything.

I await for your next response dearly.

lol no, ur the guy that likes to argue becuz you think your smarter than everyone and NO one else's opinion is allowed or can sway you. This is why you hate america, cuz ur a communist. you say your the guy thats somewhat an expert but you have no idea what i do or any of the other guys arguing football do. LOL

dude i play tackle football with my friends outside every sunday....no pads. There isnt any different in wearing pads or not...its the size and the speed of the game. Wearing pads, thats the total basis of your arguement.. Just becuz they wear pads... doesnt make them any less of a man then rugby players.

its pure science... if u stand on a building holding a golf ball(rugby player) and a bowling ball(NFL player) and drop them..... which one is going to give the biggest impact upon hitting the ground? Thats not even factoring in the speed for which they are traveling... thats just size. You can argue stats, you can argue pads or no pads, you cannot argue science. go ask your professor.

i'll wait for your reply, gladly ^^