Apex Forever | LIGHT-FARM | UNIQUE CONCEPT

[Kallop]

i mean also archers are big counter to mages . But bcz ppl complain about archer partys they did this maybe just for beta , coz there is no information it will stay for Official or not . But with that decision archers unplayable they allready nerfed ice light shot. PPL complain of 2-3 party archers running together . 1 Archer party cant do nothing . Its same issue if 2-3 party mages running together or meeles . Idk why ppl complain about archers so much.

Because archers cannot die. That's the only reason why people hate archers. Melee parties and mage parties have weaknesses and that's why they will eventually get run over, but archers can literally run away and shoot without dying forever. I imagine that's the reason why they made the change. The only issue with shooting removing light feet is that it's REALLY annoying to play with. It basically forces archers to stand still while shooting, but since it removes light feet, it can also fuck you over by accident, which causes a ton of frustration. Also, does it only happen with Dark Pursuer? Or does it happen with every archer skill?

Edit: To clarify, archer parties don't "counter" mage parties. They are simply a way of playing against mages without the fear or ever dying, but if you have a good melee team, you should be able to destroy mage parties anyway.
Edit 2: Mages are a great comparison actually. Imagine if mages had light feet or could pillar instantly without stopping to cast their skills. That's what it feels like to play against a good archer party. You cannot catch them and you'll die if you try. They simply make the game less fun for everybody else, both mages and melees, as well as solo players or smaller groups.

[MakoReactor]

i mean also archers are big counter to mages . But bcz ppl complain about archer partys they did this maybe just for beta , coz there is no information it will stay for Official or not . But with that decision archers unplayable they allready nerfed ice light shot. PPL complain of 2-3 party archers running together . 1 Archer party cant do nothing . Its same issue if 2-3 party mages running together or meeles . Idk why ppl complain about archers so much.

How exactly is it the same??? smh sfrj members

[Johnny]

Because archers cannot die. That's the only reason why people hate archers. Melee parties and mage parties have weaknesses and that's why they will eventually get run over, but archers can literally run away and shoot without dying forever. I imagine that's the reason why they made the change. The only issue with shooting removing light feet is that it's REALLY annoying to play with. It basically forces archers to stand still while shooting, but since it removes light feet, it can also fuck you over by accident, which causes a ton of frustration. Also, does it only happen with Dark Pursuer? Or does it happen with every archer skill?

Edit: To clarify, archer parties don't "counter" mage parties. They are simply a way of playing against mages without the fear or ever dying, but if you have a good melee team, you should be able to destroy mage parties anyway.
Edit 2: Mages are a great comparison actually. Imagine if mages had light feet or could pillar instantly without stopping to cast their skills. That's what it feels like to play against a good archer party. You cannot catch them and you'll die if you try. They simply make the game less fun for everybody else, both mages and melees, as well as solo players or smaller groups.

Its on Every skill , i mean Archers can get wrecked also with good meele team , Also better solution was to increase slow/stun on mage skills , also legcut/scream on warriors , coz i got barely any .
On every server there was archers but never that hardcore decisions . Also as i said before its just numbers ,1 party of archers cant do too much .

[ilovemyko1]

Its on Every skill , i mean Archers can get wrecked also with good meele team , Also better solution was to increase slow/stun on mage skills , also legcut/scream on warriors , coz i got barely any .
On every server there was archers but never that hardcore decisions . Also as i said before its just numbers ,1 party of archers cant do too much .

Did you play the beta? archers were broken. literally made the pk miserable

[deeh]

Its on Every skill , i mean Archers can get wrecked also with good meele team , Also better solution was to increase slow/stun on mage skills , also legcut/scream on warriors , coz i got barely any .
On every server there was archers but never that hardcore decisions . Also as i said before its just numbers ,1 party of archers cant do too much .

What are you talking about? Did you play beta? Archers killed the server in the first 3 hours of cz pk. Almost every mage clan left and melee clan.
No one can catch archer parties, priests can't heal due to 8 styx at same time, mages can't tp because of styx.
You can keep the light feet, but they'll have to nerf range/dmg and increase styx cooldown, otherwise server will be empty in 1month.

[MakoReactor]

What are you talking about? Did you play beta? Archers killed the server in the first 3 hours of cz pk. Almost every mage clan left and melee clan.
No one can catch archer parties, priests can't heal due to 8 styx at same time, mages can't tp because of styx.
You can keep the light feet, but they'll have to nerf range/dmg and increase styx cooldown, otherwise server will be empty in 1month.

Clearly he was one of them.. they really do not give a fuck about anyone but themselves

[Kallop]

Its on Every skill , i mean Archers can get wrecked also with good meele team , Also better solution was to increase slow/stun on mage skills , also legcut/scream on warriors , coz i got barely any .
On every server there was archers but never that hardcore decisions . Also as i said before its just numbers ,1 party of archers cant do too much .

I disagree with them hurting solo play by making light feet disappear with skills like arrow shower and multiple shot. I understand why it would work with Dark Pursuer and some of the other skills though. Honestly, you could just remove the animation cancelling from Dark Pursuer, Shadow Hunter and Shadow Shot and it would be fine, instead of this type of game-flow breaking band-aid fix.

[razor]

I think it's very concerning that the server has 2 days before releasing and admins / players haven't figured out a way to tackle the archer problem. It doesn't have to be anything too drastic, after all, future patching is always possible.

Archer parties, especially when they have ice / light shot, can be absurdly unfun to play against, that much is clear. The goal here is to adjust them without breaking their usability in other game modes / other pk situations that aren't 8 archers running together.

The current temp. fix of downright removing light feet, while effective, is very clunky and limiting to players, to the point where it can make dedicated archer players not want to touch the class with a 10 ft. pole. Archers have always been 2nd class citizens but they're still players of your server, and it's in the best of your interests to not want to make them quit altogether!

Some ideas down below:

• Styx cooldown needs to be nerfed. This skill has a 7 second base CD and that's too low for what it does. Well, it really isn't that low, the problem is when that skill gets multiplied x8. It's overwhelming. I suggest doubling the CD at least.
• Their maximum range needs to be nerfed. IIRC in apex, arrows will always damage you if you got to successfully cast them. Whereas officially and in other PSKO there's a range restriction that prevents them from doing damage past the range threshold (dark pursuer failed).
• Ice / light needs to be nerfed yes, but not to the point where you can carry 0 GR and 0 LR and still be basically CC immune. Keep a decent rate if people forsake using defensive stats (0-10 resists 25%, 30 resists 6%, 50 resists 4%, 100 resists 2%, etc).
• Arrow shower and multishot can be left intact, that's not what people consider unfun about dealing with archer parties.
• Implementing an AC penalty when a bow is equipped. This is a very unforgiving and last resort measure, but could be something to be considered. Something like -100 AC if a bow is on.
• Nerfing ice / light cooldown on top of the rate nerfs. Currently these skills sit at a 6~ second cd. Could be increased to 8 or so.
• Nerfing Shadow Hunter damage by 50% as a preventive measure, to see how things work out.
• Increasing arrow talia dropping odds over other weapon talias.
• Adding some obstacles in the 12/6 CZ area outside bowl. Old cz had plenty of trees, new cz has nothing. It's all flat terrain.

For now the ice / light rate and styx nerfs would suffice. No one will have dark pursuer unlocked for a while so nerfing shadow hunter a bit could be considered too. Just don't go forward with the "casting arrows removes light feet", otherwise that's as good as saying "casting a debuff unequips your shield for 3s" or "descenting stuns you for 1 second".

[Johnny]

What are you talking about? Did you play beta? Archers killed the server in the first 3 hours of cz pk. Almost every mage clan left and melee clan.
No one can catch archer parties, priests can't heal due to 8 styx at same time, mages can't tp because of styx.
You can keep the light feet, but they'll have to nerf range/dmg and increase styx cooldown, otherwise server will be empty in 1month.

1st beta 70cap was full no one complained . then they did farm beta its ended. then they added 2nd Beta 70cap there was 10x less ppl , ppl started complain coz only archers were left and they could not catch them . With crowed server noone care u can ambush anyone from anyside. Its just complains on Non crowed pk . 1st beta noone care about archers while there was 20 mage clans . Idk what u speaking about .

[razor]

1st beta 70cap was full no one complained . then they did farm beta its ended. then they added 2nd Beta 70cap there was 10x less ppl , ppl started complain coz only archers were left and they could not catch them . With crowed server noone care u can ambush anyone from anyside. Its just complains on Non crowed pk . 1st beta noone care about archers while there was 20 mage clans . Idk what u speaking about .

This is true. No positioning or range can save you when there are people swarming you from every side. Just fix the rates and styx cd and see what happens.

[Johnny]

I think it's very concerning that the server has 2 days before releasing and admins / players haven't figured out a way to tackle the archer problem. It doesn't have to be anything too drastic, after all, future patching is always possible.

Archer parties, especially when they have ice / light shot, can be absurdly unfun to play against, that much is clear. The goal here is to adjust them without breaking their usability in other game modes / other pk situations that aren't 8 archers running together.

The current temp. fix of downright removing light feet, while effective, is very clunky and limiting to players, to the point where it can make dedicated archer players not want to touch the class with a 10 ft. pole. Archers have always been 2nd class citizens but they're still players of your server, and it's in the best of your interests to not want to make them quit altogether!

Some ideas down below:

• Styx cooldown needs to be nerfed. This skill has a 7 second base CD and that's too low for what it does. Well, it really isn't that low, the problem is when that skill gets multiplied x8. It's overwhelming. I suggest doubling the CD at least.
• Their maximum range needs to be nerfed. IIRC in apex, arrows will always damage you if you got to successfully cast them. Whereas officially and in other PSKO there's a range restriction that prevents them from doing damage past the range threshold (dark pursuer failed).
• Ice / light needs to be nerfed yes, but not to the point where you can carry 0 GR and 0 LR and still be basically CC immune. Keep a decent rate if people forsake using defensive stats (0-10 resists 25%, 30 resists 6%, 50 resists 4%, 100 resists 2%, etc).
• Arrow shower and multishot can be left intact, that's not what people consider unfun about dealing with archer parties.
• Implementing an AC penalty when a bow is equipped. This is a very unforgiving and last resort measure, but could be something to be considered. Something like -100 AC if a bow is on.
• Nerfing ice / light cooldown on top of the rate nerfs. Currently these skills sit at a 6~ second cd. Could be increased to 8 or so.
• Nerfing Shadow Hunter damage by 50% as a preventive measure, to see how things work out.
• Increasing arrow talia dropping odds over other weapon talias.
• Adding some obstacles in the 12/6 CZ area outside bowl. Old cz had plenty of trees, new cz has nothing. It's all flat terrain.

For now the ice / light rate and styx nerfs would suffice. No one will have dark pursuer unlocked for a while so nerfing shadow hunter a bit could be considered too. Just don't go forward with the "casting arrows removes light feet", otherwise that's as good as saying "casting a debuff unequips your shield for 3s" or "descenting stuns you for 1 second".

Fully agree with u . Nerf dmg, Ice / Light .Even nerf of stux if 8 archers styx with delay of 1 sec each styx u are still out of mana . CD 16 sec of styx are fine. But i noticed if u shot guy and he get tp arrow follows him to destination untill its blocked from object or other player. Maybe that fix instead decreasing range for 30%

[Wendy]

Is it just me or there is no information about how is the server gonna be like except what few monsters drop and anvil rates?

[Aesteris]

I think it's very concerning that the server has 2 days before releasing and admins / players haven't figured out a way to tackle the archer problem. It doesn't have to be anything too drastic, after all, future patching is always possible.

Archer parties, especially when they have ice / light shot, can be absurdly unfun to play against, that much is clear. The goal here is to adjust them without breaking their usability in other game modes / other pk situations that aren't 8 archers running together.

The current temp. fix of downright removing light feet, while effective, is very clunky and limiting to players, to the point where it can make dedicated archer players not want to touch the class with a 10 ft. pole. Archers have always been 2nd class citizens but they're still players of your server, and it's in the best of your interests to not want to make them quit altogether!

Some ideas down below:

• Styx cooldown needs to be nerfed. This skill has a 7 second base CD and that's too low for what it does. Well, it really isn't that low, the problem is when that skill gets multiplied x8. It's overwhelming. I suggest doubling the CD at least.
• Their maximum range needs to be nerfed. IIRC in apex, arrows will always damage you if you got to successfully cast them. Whereas officially and in other PSKO there's a range restriction that prevents them from doing damage past the range threshold (dark pursuer failed).
• Ice / light needs to be nerfed yes, but not to the point where you can carry 0 GR and 0 LR and still be basically CC immune. Keep a decent rate if people forsake using defensive stats (0-10 resists 25%, 30 resists 6%, 50 resists 4%, 100 resists 2%, etc).
• Arrow shower and multishot can be left intact, that's not what people consider unfun about dealing with archer parties.
• Implementing an AC penalty when a bow is equipped. This is a very unforgiving and last resort measure, but could be something to be considered. Something like -100 AC if a bow is on.
• Nerfing ice / light cooldown on top of the rate nerfs. Currently these skills sit at a 6~ second cd. Could be increased to 8 or so.
• Nerfing Shadow Hunter damage by 50% as a preventive measure, to see how things work out.
• Increasing arrow talia dropping odds over other weapon talias.
• Adding some obstacles in the 12/6 CZ area outside bowl. Old cz had plenty of trees, new cz has nothing. It's all flat terrain.

For now the ice / light rate and styx nerfs would suffice. No one will have dark pursuer unlocked for a while so nerfing shadow hunter a bit could be considered too. Just don't go forward with the "casting arrows removes light feet", otherwise that's as good as saying "casting a debuff unequips your shield for 3s" or "descenting stuns you for 1 second".

Thank you for these suggestions, we're reviewing them at the moment.
Just to clarify, ONLY light feet is removed upon casting an arrow - if you use swift or swift scroll, it will not be removed.
This seems to have been left out by everyone complaining.
The logic behind this is that archers don't need to both be running extremely fast and only have a cast time of 0.25s.
While damage of a fully geared archer party (or 2, or 3) is high, the biggest problem (from what I could observe anyway) is the inability of anyone to get close to them to begin with.
Mages at the very least have 1s+ cast times so that keeps them in place and allows people to catch up.

The ice/light rate nerfs are here to stay, and are roughly inline with what you outlined.
The light feet removal is currently a setting we can change while the server is live, and we're planning to see how things turn out during official.
In any case, we will be doing something about archer parties one way or the other if they prove problematic during official.

Slightly more insight into what made us do the light feet change rather than tweak damages;
We know that during official damage is going to be extremely dependent on itemization of both attacker and target; tweaking something like this generally tends to lead to frustration because of what you guys already pointed out before, people have come to expect certain things. We looked at re-adding the 1.5s cast time on arrows as this would effectively solve the issue of archers being both the fastest in the game while enjoying an extremely low cast time, but this would be a global change and would thus remove AS/MS combo. We've also looked at range reductions as was suggested on our Discord - while do-able, this feels as if it's just as invasive and would be a global thing too.

None of this seems ideal to us, and thus we're choosing to leave them as-is (without light feet change enabled) during launch, but if they prove to be a problem the first go-to measure will be the light feet removal upon firing an arrow.
Any other changes (range in particular, as that did seem to be favored by archers), would require a client patch and we'll be doing them as needed.

[Kallop]

Thank you for these suggestions, we're reviewing them at the moment.
Just to clarify, ONLY light feet is removed upon casting an arrow - if you use swift or swift scroll, it will not be removed.
This seems to have been left out by everyone complaining.
The logic behind this is that archers don't need to both be running extremely fast and only have a cast time of 0.25s.
While damage of a fully geared archer party (or 2, or 3) is high, the biggest problem (from what I could observe anyway) is the inability of anyone to get close to them to begin with.
Mages at the very least have 1s+ cast times so that keeps them in place and allows people to catch up.

The ice/light rate nerfs are here to stay, and are roughly inline with what you outlined.
The light feet removal is currently a setting we can change while the server is live, and we're planning to see how things turn out during official.
In any case, we will be doing something about archer parties one way or the other if they prove problematic during official.

Slightly more insight into what made us do the light feet change rather than tweak damages;
We know that during official damage is going to be extremely dependent on itemization of both attacker and target; tweaking something like this generally tends to lead to frustration because of what you guys already pointed out before, people have come to expect certain things. We looked at re-adding the 1.5s cast time on arrows as this would effectively solve the issue of archers being both the fastest in the game while enjoying an extremely low cast time, but this would be a global change and would thus remove AS/MS combo. We've also looked at range reductions as was suggested on our Discord - while do-able, this feels as if it's just as invasive and would be a global thing too.

None of this seems ideal to us, and thus we're choosing to leave them as-is (without light feet change enabled) during launch, but if they prove to be a problem the first go-to measure will be the light feet removal upon firing an arrow.
Any other changes (range in particular, as that did seem to be favored by archers), would require a client patch and we'll be doing them as needed.

I assume we're going to have to open 70/72/76/78/80 skills by doing the quests. Or are they open automatically?

[MenInBlack]

Thank you for these suggestions, we're reviewing them at the moment.
Just to clarify, ONLY light feet is removed upon casting an arrow - if you use swift or swift scroll, it will not be removed.
This seems to have been left out by everyone complaining.
The logic behind this is that archers don't need to both be running extremely fast and only have a cast time of 0.25s.
While damage of a fully geared archer party (or 2, or 3) is high, the biggest problem (from what I could observe anyway) is the inability of anyone to get close to them to begin with.
Mages at the very least have 1s+ cast times so that keeps them in place and allows people to catch up.

The ice/light rate nerfs are here to stay, and are roughly inline with what you outlined.
The light feet removal is currently a setting we can change while the server is live, and we're planning to see how things turn out during official.
In any case, we will be doing something about archer parties one way or the other if they prove problematic during official.

Slightly more insight into what made us do the light feet change rather than tweak damages;
We know that during official damage is going to be extremely dependent on itemization of both attacker and target; tweaking something like this generally tends to lead to frustration because of what you guys already pointed out before, people have come to expect certain things. We looked at re-adding the 1.5s cast time on arrows as this would effectively solve the issue of archers being both the fastest in the game while enjoying an extremely low cast time, but this would be a global change and would thus remove AS/MS combo. We've also looked at range reductions as was suggested on our Discord - while do-able, this feels as if it's just as invasive and would be a global thing too.

None of this seems ideal to us, and thus we're choosing to leave them as-is (without light feet change enabled) during launch, but if they prove to be a problem the first go-to measure will be the light feet removal upon firing an arrow.
Any other changes (range in particular, as that did seem to be favored by archers), would require a client patch and we'll be doing them as needed.

Is it possible to reduce damage based on amount of archers in a party? that wouldn't effect the solo archer players but in general only the archer party's who everyone is against with anyway... They won't be dropping ppl in 2 sec if the dmg is cut drastically on an 8 man archer party....
Reducing dmg overall is just sad for the few archers who likes to play solo so that wouldn't be a good fix imo.