Ayman4u - religious discussion

[Vacant]

Originally posted by camaz0tz+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(camaz0tz)</div>

<!--QuoteBegin-Vacant

Whatever, I am not going to continue arguing about it. If that wasent your intent then fine, sorry for taking that the wrong way.

But why do you hate indoctrination? I can understand if the ones that try to convert you are pushy and irrational but otherwise what do you have to fear? If you are confident in what you believe then that shouldent be an issue. If you arn't confident, maybe its time to open up your mind and listen to others oppinions to decide for yourself.

im against it because most people dont decide their faith based on what they actually spent time researchnig to believe...its generally "oh heres catholicism its nearby its accessible its god-believing its popular and i was raised around it........let me choose that" then once theyve chosen it they begin to research religion but keep that close to heart...i TRUELY believe that true religious outlook and belief cannot be achieved til u renounce ur faith and look at it from an aspect of not believing in god...at one point i didnt believe in god at all but one of my religion teachers(yes i went to a catholic school so i was around it all the time -_-) told me he understood that he went through the same thing til he was about 20 and really started getting into religion again...hes now a catholic again but by choice after analyzing every other religion from a neutral position[/b]

Good! We agree on that then. People shouldent follow the crowd and believe the first thing that is around them. Catholicism is another subject, and I am not exactly fond of that either. <_< Anyways, people should study and think things over and decide for themselves not because someone else told them to, because that isnt true faith in the first place. However I don't see why listening to others oppinions with an open mind would be a bad thing.

[Adis]

Preeciseelllly. So now you can see why I hate it when people try to "think" for me

[Vacant]

Originally posted by Adis
Preeciseelllly. So now you can see why I hate it when people try to "think" for me

It seems you have had some bad experiences with missionarys or so on in the past and thats unfortunate I can understand completely where you are coming from. I was lucky to have someone I am really close to discuss it with me. If it wasen't for my wife I really don't think I could have been convinced otherwise.

[Shurt]

Is anyone else suprised this thread is still going? h43r:

[Vacant]

Originally posted by Shurt
Is anyone else suprised this thread is still going? *h43r:

Yeah but it's one of the few threads that hasen't turned into a complete flamewar. So far there isn't much mudslinging. :P

[Eric]

Why are all of you even bothering with this topic anymore? It's been beaten to death by me and mason_cro and no one else wanted to join in, theres no point starting from the beginning.

[Hostage]

Im curious as to how the turkish population would respond to this. :mellow:

[TunaFishyMe]

Originally posted by Eric
Why are all of you even bothering with this topic anymore? *It's been beaten to death by me and mason_cro and no one else wanted to join in, theres no point starting from the beginning.

pfft i raped all of you with my philosophical arguements linking descartes and my own geniusness

[Adis]

Tuna, familiar with the Cartesian circle? :lol:

J/k I <3 Descartes.

[mason_cro]

Why are all of you even bothering with this topic anymore? It's been beaten to death by me and mason_cro and no one else wanted to join in, theres no point starting from the beginning.

Hm, although we rarely agree, I've got to admit, religious stuff is getting kinda old on these forums...We don't really need to enlighten someone or show them the way, we just need more tolerance, that's it...People around here tend to amuse the public by dissing somebody for no apparent reason, other than him being an atheist or a christian, or a pikaist, or black.

Only benefit in doing these kinda discussions is to brush up on our english, it's actually been quite productive for me,since I'm not a native speaker

[Ayman4u]

Originally posted by Eric
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...all+evil&hl=en
learn something

i took me like 3 days to download -_- , lost my old connection and have now low speed one till we renew any way i watched this show like 3-4 times maybe to see what he got and trying to learn something as u said and i had very bad connection and not much time to post and check the spelling etc but after its finished downloading and when i am free i posted .


In his show he said :

Religious faith discourages independent thought , it's divisive and it's dangerous

science is A discipline of investigation and constructive doubt , questing with logic , evidence and reason to draw conclusions

Faith, by stark contrast, demands A positive suspension of critical faculties

Science proceeds by setting up hypotheses, ideas or models and then attempt to disprove them.

so A scientist is constantly asking questions, being sceptical

He defined Religion as its about turning untested belief into unshakable truth through the power of institutions and the passage of time. and it belief with also original soruces that have proves, miracles,evidence.

Then he explained with example the story of the Assumption of Mary and talked about Catholics believe which not related to what the topic about.
And then he said it would be unfair to pick on them and all religions are up to the same tricks which is not true he said it could be muslim Imams issuing fatwas and its same principle , no its not! ,and the Imams fatwas based on A verse from the Holy Quran or from the prophet Muhammed teachings "Hadith" (PBUH) it cant be from his mind he cant invent anything he can try to explain something in the community issues and others disagree or agree about what he explained and gives him prove but he cant invent A new thing and he spoke about the Imams and there is alot of Imams all over the world all take there sources from the Holy Quran and the" hadith" teachings of the prophet Muhammed (PBUH).
It cover everything just need sometimes to be explained, and there is the highest Imam in saudi arabia that if they need to discuss something they group the best scholars in islam and discuss it to have the right explanation of it , community issues or matters new things,names wasnt exist ad need to have like section to be identified in, not Fatwas in the basics or pillars of Islam .
We have original recorded sources of our religion the Quran and the Teachings of Muhammad "hadith" from 1300+ years ago.
Because he said "without A shred of evidence " and this is not true at all like i said why above.


Then he said in the Bible Belt of middle America , evangelical Christians are fighting back against science, well he didn't say muslims , because Islam never fight back science in any time, however Science have proved many things in islam if in the Quran or things we have been told to do or use or treat by it from the Quran or the Teachings of Muhammad (PBUH) and that what was the post about .

And then he said that the New world religion is free enterprise , rival groups set up shop on every street corner, competing to save people's souls and collect their money. I never saw that in any muslims countries or heard about it and no groups that asked about any money to collect to save us or our souls and we don't have that New World religion, may be non-Muslims country have it.

then he speaks about the pastor is Ted Haggert the powerful-man chairman of The National Association of Evangelicals, and the new life is Ted's Evangelical Vatican.
and that he is foisting evident falsehoods on their flock
and also that The Evangelicals are denying scientific evidence , just to support bronze age myths and not related to the topic either.

After he went to juersalem

- And that dude said in muslim religions there no possibility anyway of sharing the territory and that if he come in some far corner aways from the mosque in an open area under a tree somewhere , if muslims will catch him murmuring songs or some other prayers they will call the police to have him egressed , he is liar ...
- About sharing territory what prove that he is totally wrong we here in Egypt live with christian with peace and no hatred between each others they have there churches here even in same mosque street sometimes and moslems apartments near christians ones they are even mixed up and without any problem and they have there own religion we have our own , what ever he do no one will call police for him ,this is big lie and also the police protect support them sometimes more than muslims ...
- In the Quran god say ( O ye that reject Faith!: I worship not that which ye worship : Nor will ye worship that which I worship : And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship : Nor will ye worship that which I worship : To you be your Way, and to me mine. ) Al-Kafirun 109.

- Then about the scholar that say if they want peace with the Arabs and muslims then they should keep away from Al-Aqsa-mosque , and he said there are no negotiation about it because no muslim in all over the world has the right to negotiate over the Al-Aqsa-Mosque , because its holy for muslims like he mentioned before the third holiest site.

then he said

:we've witnessed the religious insanities of middle east penetrate the heart of the secular West *

- the religious terrorism they inspire is the logical outcome of deeply-held faith

Even so-called moderate believers are part of the same religious fabric

They encourage unreason as A positive virtue.

- well our religion called Islam and its arabic word verb and noun "peace", as verb its surrender to Almighty Allah,submission to his will,obey,sincere worship only for him, god and its peace in mind,heart and soul , and as Noun its the 6 articles of belief and the 5 pillars of actions and Complete way of life.
so those people who don't do the 5 pillars of islam or some of them and not really good follower and go bomb themselves in middle innocent people they are not really moslems if they do this they are out of islam by this actions they will even enter hell by that not paradise, Islam doesn`t support Terrorism at all.
- There are people misguided by higher authorities from rich nations for politics reasons who support and gear them to do that, and they tell them they will take care of there family because some of them cant... and that by doing this he will go to the paradise and he is hopeless in his life so he wont lose anything this is a "misguided person" by who ever who wash his mind and then the action oh happen by a muslim and then go go blame all the muslims and islam . you cant judge any religion by the people in it that is not really good followers , and there is A muslim just muslim on the credit card and not truely muslim because Islam is A complete way of life.

- He also said the war between good and evil is really just the war between two evils , well how is "good" going to defend himself from "evil" ? if people conquered your country and smashing your whole town wiping it from the earth to establish new one for them what you are going to do ,watch and cry? or go do something even kill your self for your own nation or sacrifice thats what the religious or non-religious do but the religious one doing this in example like a muslim because god ordered him to defend his religion his country and everything and he will earn the highest degree in the paradise if he fought well and defend all even if he got killed not like the non-religious who think they have 1 life and afraid to lose it and not caring about anything, also not to kill himself in middle of innocent people hurting them and increasing the disaster on the earth more and more this not right.

- There is 2 different kind of situations:
1- A man who is going to bomb himself or sacrifice in military base that conquering his nation or invading his land/country defending it and care about others even if he will lose his life this is not terrorism.
2- A man who is going to bomb himself "misguided" think what he do is right and he go kill innocent people even in there own nation ddin't do anything to him or to his country or hijacking/ kidnapping poor innocent people who even have no relation to what happened to him and use them to put pressure on some authorities , those are Terrorists.

Does islam = Terrorism

And at the end he talks with Yousef the ex-secular jew and had some argues and telling there own opinions in some stuff , and i am not sure what he meant by "we want all the kufur "disbeliever" out of Muhammeds land" if he mean Al-Aqsa holy mosque or all the lands well its his opinion,
- After it he asked him Do you want Islam to take over the rest of the world ? he said of course i want and it will , well this is been predicted long time by the prophet muhammed (PBUH) with some details some of it happened and he meant that all becomes muslims by there choice and knowing that its the true faith not by force , islam religion can't be forced on any one at all god said in the Quran :
( Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.) Al-Baqarah [2:256]

Then he cut the rest of the conv with him don't know why he didnt continue it ? anyway and he talks about historic injustice towards the Palestinians that it breeds hatred and anger.

And about if preachers tells the faithful that paradise after martyrdom is better than here in this world , that this idea will lead to vendetta,war and suffering , its not true.
Its true that this life not perfect and the other life is and this wont lead to that because humans has been created to worship god on the earth to be tested to see what they really deserve and to be A vicegerent on earth to maintain it make it more better for all , in the Quran god say:
[b] ( Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? Whilst we do celebrate Thy praise and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not.") Al-baqarah 2-30.
- Then he on the Mount of Olives...

and ..... then he said about in childhood people brought up from the cradle , to think there is something good about faith and about believing because you have been told to believe rather than believing because you have looked at the evidence , well we "muslims" brought up believing and that we have evidence on what we believe and its true not lie and that what was the topic about some how , to prove that science prove faith in islam and i showed only 1 miracle from like 20 or more that related to science not just science there is others related to alot of things .


- And last about proving that god exist or no , Allah sent down miracles , revelations and messengers to give clear proofs he exists , he has sent prophets and messengers with many proofs throughout the ages ,No one sees or hears Allah, not even the prophet Muhammad, (PBUH).
Nor are we able to use our senses to make some kind of contact with Him. However, we are encouraged in Islam to use our senses and our common sense to recognize all of this universe could not possibly come into existence on its own.
Something had to design it all and then put it into motion. This is beyond our ability to do, yet it is something we can understand.
Also its like We don't have to see an artist to recognize a painting that he painted, right?. So if we see paintings without seeing artists painting them you are sure that there is artist who painted it.
In the same way, we can believe Allah created everything without having to see Him or touch, or hear, etc.

How could we look to the universe above us through a telescope or observe the molecules in a microscope and then think all of this came about as a result of a big bang or some accident?!

- If someone told us about a fast food restaurant operating itself without any people there, The food just cooks itself, flys from the kitchen to the table and then when we are done, the dishes jump back the kitchen to wash themselves. This is too crazy for anyone to even think about.
anyway that show most of it focues on christians believes more than anoter like 90% of the show about it and the last few minutes about Islam and not even from good soruces as he did in his show with Catholics believes.

thanks for reading

and for member who posted here in the post said they hate it when someone talk about religion trying to convert members etc, i didnt try to convert anyone or even talk about my religion here in this forum i never did that before those 2 posts and i am here in this forum from long time you can check my posts ...

I have posted what i did because of the reason of this post as you can see :

Care to back any of these up? Verse numbers would suffice of course, but perhaps full quotations are in order for everyone else who might read this thread. I call shenanigans

This is an important question; what gives any of these so-called sacred texts actual authority? Ayman tried to cover this with the first passage, but I very much doubt its factual correctness.

[Eric]

Don't really feel like diseccting your entire argument considering it repeats itself quite often and is only corroborated by "holy texts".

The fact that we don't know how the world has come to be, does not mean that we have to fabricate a religion or a greater being to explain the unknown. The act of fabricating a religion does not stem from rational and scientific thinking.

You addressed many of the points in the video and you tried poorly to defend your own religion. You said on many occasions that terrorism is not taught in islam, however it is a persons interpretation of the text that came to that conclusion. Fair enough, but the harm of those people who interpret islam and become extremists cause massive harm. As said before, religion may have brought some good upon the world, however it has caused a tremendous amount more of damage.

I personally have no problem with people peacfully practicing their religion, however religion as a whole will never lead to anything positive. Whether it be people interpreting the religion for their own agendas, the people who try to incorporate religion into science, or for the simple fact that people use religion to explain the unknown rather than seeking for evidence to discover the truth.

[tolgahan]

ayman bro ,u r wasting ur time.
Quran can prove anything if they want to believe something.if they want.... .
its funny to read atheist's posts about god.

Cama why didnt u call me? . This topic's "flammmmme " mode is open n we are late . I am gonna BURN here but we have to wait for zero . We need GAS to burn something :P

[Eric]

Originally posted by tolgahan
ayman bro ,u r wasting ur time.
Quran can prove anything if they want to believe something.if they want.... .
its funny to read atheist's posts about god.

Cama why didnt u call me? . This topic's "flammmmme " mode is open n we are late . I am gonna BURN here but we have to wait for zero . We need GAS to burn something :P

belief in something is not proof of something...
Are you that fucking ignorant?

[TunaFishyMe]

calling something a proof doesnt make it a proof...
science "explains" the whys from the observation of the scientist. Thats it. It doesnt prove anything.